alt.hn

8/21/2026 at 2:27:37 PM

WPD won't replace stolen Flock cameras, citing public trust

 https://www.winonapost.com/news/wpd-wont-replace-stolen-flock-cameras-citing-public-trust/article_06a67859-2d97-414b-aa8f-d8751ad214bb.html

by erikschoster

8/21/2026 at 5:13:27 PM

Mods: To reduce ambiguity, can we change "WPD" to "Winona, Minnesota PD"?

by otterley

8/21/2026 at 5:25:07 PM

A good sign, but I wonder if this will hold.

by Varelion

8/21/2026 at 5:18:45 PM

Obviously an unpopular opinion on this site, but I wish we had speed cameras, red-light cameras, and ALPRs everywhere. Cars are incredibly dangerous and large numbers of people drive them like absolute lunatics. There should be absolutely no expectation of privacy when using public streets. That position doesn't even account for the footage helping immensely with other investigations.

by veec_cas_tant

8/21/2026 at 5:25:10 PM

Personally I agree with the desire for more traffic enforcement, even if it means I personally would suffer because frankly I like driving fast. But as a cyclist who also likes riding fast, and a parent to likes giving freedom to children, safer roads would be great.

The problem is that these systems, always and without fail, come with government and police overreach and then the "guilty unless proven innocent" paradigm creeps in, which we have already seen happen with flock. You have police using the technology to spy on their lovers and friends of their wives and husbands, and you have political campaigns finding ways to spy on their opponents, and activists getting special attention from prosecutors, etc. Which always happs, but with totalitarianism is an absolute train wreck for an open, fair, and power-balanced government.

by bdamm

8/21/2026 at 5:24:13 PM

> There should be absolutely no expectation of privacy when using public streets.

Strong disagree. Life in public areas is often still part of private life. And we should treat it with the respect and privacy that it deserves. You going to the doctor? That's part of your private life. You meeting with an old friend to catch up? Also private, even though you do it in a public cafe.

by vaylian

8/21/2026 at 5:23:13 PM

You managed to say everything but the difficult bit. People don't generally have a problem with cameras, all our computers and phones have one. The problem is who can use them and when.

by moritonal

8/21/2026 at 5:22:35 PM

I would totally agree with you if I trusted the government

by steviehicks78

8/21/2026 at 3:46:42 PM

So they will be replacing them with Axon cameras I presume?

by ranger_danger

8/21/2026 at 4:15:41 PM

Looks like they’re actually listening to their community, so maybe not.

by iAMkenough

8/21/2026 at 5:15:51 PM

[dead]

by wegwerper

8/21/2026 at 3:51:07 PM

I posted this in another thread, and had my comment instantly flagged. Love this site.

Worth looking at how these cameras got approved in the first place. My county's ALPR interlocal passed on the consent agenda in December 2024, one block vote alongside forty other items, no discussion, and went through consent again in April 2025. Nothing was "hidden", it's just that "public" here means a 300 page agenda packet and a four hour YouTube video with no transcript, completely unreadable in practice.

So I spent a week and a half building a pipeline over what the county already publishes. It pulls the CivicPlus portal (agendas, minutes, item metadata, outcomes) and the YouTube channel, does ASR plus diarization, then aligns the transcript against the published agenda so the passage carries the item it happened under and whatever outcome the minutes recorded for it. Search is hybrid lexical and semantic, and the video is synced to the transcript so any claim can be checked against the recording.

The speaker attribution and the alignment was the hard part. Roughly two thirds of passages have no reliable name attached, and diarization gives you clusters rather than identities, so I mark confidence and basis rather than guessing a name. Alignment is very messy because the published agenda order and the order things actually get taken up diverge constantly, and the recorded outcome is often just "Approved the Consent Agenda" for an item that never got discussed. There is a labeling admin area to improve the dataset after initial collection

At my county meeting on Aug 25th (in a few days) I'm bringing up the fiscal side. Ours was approved under an item title that said no funding was required. No accounting has been done of what enforcement costs when someone takes a camera down. Prosecutor and court hours. Jail time, or just holding, if the state charges it. Lost future wages from otherwise upstanding citizens who now have a felony. None of that was in front of the commissioners when they approved it, and none of it is in front of them now.

Most counties run the same portal software and post to YouTube, so this should generalize. Code is at https://github.com/Tostino/civic-watch and the Pasco instance is at https://pasco.watch if anyone wants to point one at their own county. Happy to help if anyone wants.

by Tostino

8/21/2026 at 4:41:38 PM

You should start with the lede:

"I built a tool to help you understand how/if your community has agreed to deploy Flock cameras. You can try it out here: [ ].

The hardest part of this was..."

by estearum

8/21/2026 at 5:00:57 PM

Looks neat, any chance you'd be willing to share how much this costs to run?

by NegativeLatency

8/21/2026 at 4:37:58 PM

A weird take. They seem oblivious to the fact that real problem is not distrust of flock, it’s distrust of the police. They are in a situation where the public just barely trusts the local police, and a new surveillance system pushes them over the edge into hostility. They need to be working to gain much more trust.

by lokar

8/21/2026 at 4:43:21 PM

Winona, MN has a population of 20k. I've never been there, but if it's like any of the small towns I lived in, most people trust the local police. If anything, the usual small-town complaint is that the police are not doing enough about <x>, where <x> are the homeless dudes in front of the library, or package theft, or whatever.

In small towns, people distrust the federal government and big tech a lot more.

by matherial

8/21/2026 at 5:24:15 PM

Flock has been caught multiple times lying to their own customers: https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/tracking-alpr-c...

They called DeFlock "terrorists" just for tracking where these cameras are being installed.

Lying to the public. Lying to police. Lying to city councils. These aren't the actions of a trustworthy company.

by rgbrenner

8/21/2026 at 5:12:25 PM

>They seem oblivious to the fact that real problem is not distrust of flock

I really distrust flock in and of itself.

by everdrive

8/21/2026 at 4:39:47 PM

Police are bounded by evidentiary laws and warrant requirements, all of which legitimately do stand up in court. Flock is not.

So no, actually Flock itself is the problem. If Flock were willing to sign some consent decree that its data can only be accessed by police with a valid judicial warrant, for example, they probably could've headed off this entire mess.

But instead they called people "terroristic" for pushing back. Completely braindead move from the CEO.

by estearum

8/21/2026 at 4:44:42 PM

The police have SWAT teams, guns, and jails, Flock does not. So I think the state security apparatus is a part of the problem, because if they don't like you and have access to surveillance technology, the outcomes can be far more severe than if Facebook doesn't like you, or the CEO of Flock doesn't like you.

by matherial

8/21/2026 at 5:03:46 PM

People, broadly speaking, are totally fine with police having guns and jails.

Flock in absence of police is not that bad except for the whole "now we have no police" problem. Having police in the absence of Flock is totally fine, we've done it since forever.

by estearum

8/21/2026 at 4:54:28 PM

I’m not sure people think that way, or even understand the details. But they see lots of stories about police officers misusing the system.

by lokar

8/21/2026 at 5:04:52 PM

I think people understand "rich tech CEO putting cameras everywhere offers no assurances of people's privacy and legal rights, instead opts to call them terrorists" perfectly well

The fundamental issue is that Flock doesn't care about people's privacy or rights. That washes out in a variety of ways including CEOs' statements, product-level security controls (thus creating the horror stories), and lack of legal commitments to protections.

I would personally be in favor of a fairly widespread camera network that had significant legal protections built in. Flock has demonstrated – in every possible way – they cannot possibly be the providers of such a system.

by estearum

8/21/2026 at 4:49:32 PM

But also, I dont understand all this hand-wringing. EFF has a clear easy solution [1]: Put all the data behind a Warrant. Problem solved. No trust required.

Wanna look up where a murderer drove? Go get a warrant

Wanna look up where a robbery suspect drove to? Go get a Warrant.

Divorce case hinging on one party's whereabouts on a certain date? Warrant.

Speeding tickets are automatically filed anyways.

[1]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/08/too-little-too-late-fl...

by pj_mukh

8/21/2026 at 5:12:00 PM

There are plenty of exceptions police can get to bypass warrant requirements. Think for example of stingers and other cell spoofing systems or the license plate readers they have on the front of their cruisers. Even if they do have to get a warrant judges are far more likely to simply grant any warrant request if it has to do with digital surveillance. Carpenter v. United States and Chatrie v. United States have outlined this behaviour, and in the wake of their rulings created the bias towards what are basically automatically approved warrants for such data.

by Tanoc

8/21/2026 at 4:53:53 PM

The EFF is wrong. The clear solution is NOT COLLECTING THE DATA.

There is no reason or justification for us to live in a surveillance state, "protecting" the data with a warrant doesn't cut it.

Cutting down and destroying mass surveillance equipment is a patriotic action and should be applauded.

by colechristensen

8/21/2026 at 4:56:03 PM

It should be a criminal act to attempt to build a mass surveillance apparatus, whether it's for law enforcement or private use.

by redwall_hp

8/21/2026 at 5:00:51 PM

I mean ALPR's have worked wonders in my town [1]. So I'll keep supporting them until we restructure all our cities to drastically reduce car speeds. Plus post 2020 police backlash, detective work has basically disappeared and clearing rates have cratered [2]. Police are now no longer able to (or are refusing to) solve crime "the old fashioned way", and the public has no real leverage to "make them do it".

So I get it, we're in the middle of a populist uprising against it, and it's nice to ride that wave of support. But behind the scenes, these two factors are driving adoption, and we'll keep coming back to it when the backlash eventually fizzles.

I say we should just use this backlash to put in the protections EFF suggests or fix the two underlying causes. Those are the options.

[1]: https://www.oaklandca.gov/Public-Safety-Streets/Traffic-Safe...

[2]: https://stateline.org/2025/11/24/why-clearance-rates-dont-te...

by pj_mukh

8/21/2026 at 5:21:13 PM

> I mean ALPR's have worked wonders in my town [1]. So I'll keep supporting them

With flock, citizens are concerned by the privacy implications of the state keeping a dossier of each citizen’s movements.

But once we assure citizens the flock cameras have already issued 500,000 speeding fines in a single town this year, no doubt they’ll come to support the cameras.

Perhaps the cameras could also automatically issue parking fines, to garner even more popular support!

by michaelt

8/21/2026 at 5:05:18 PM

Issuing tickets doesn't require retaining any data on vehicles you aren't ticketing, you're conflating issues.

by Arainach

8/21/2026 at 5:07:20 PM

I'm not. There are two issues in my comment.

by pj_mukh

8/21/2026 at 4:54:55 PM

They’re oblivious to this fact because it’s not true. Most people by a substantial margin trust their local police.

by SpicyLemonZest

8/21/2026 at 4:41:52 PM

Oh no, we distrust both.

by outside1234