7/15/2026 at 10:28:21 AM
From a purely geographical point of view, it is so absurd that there is even a debate about to which land mass Gibraltar "belongs" to. As a colonialist, I would find it very difficult to justify my own behaviour nowadays.by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 10:35:56 AM
(I am Spanish, so I might be biased)I think the twp main problems are not who Gibraltar belongs to, but 1. Gibraltar is that it is kind of a tax haven next to one of th areas of Spain with more poverty and unemployment, which is also one of the main drug entrances of the country. This combibation is explosive and really problematic for the people in the Campo de Gibraltar, especially the youth. 2. The people of Gibraltar must also be sovereign and don't want to belong to Spain, so I think we should respect that.
I think this kind of agreement make a compromise, integrating better Gibraltar with the area, making it possible for the people around to benefit from the Gibraltar's economy, bridging Gibraltar and Spain closer, while respecting the sovereignity of the people of Gibraltar.
However, I must say, a similar agreement could be done with Gibraltat belonging to Spain, which I would consider fairer, but still not the most important point.
by amunozo
7/15/2026 at 10:42:06 AM
I assume you're also in favour of Ceuta and Melilla being given to Morocco over the wishes of the people whos ancestors have lived there for centuries?by iso1631
7/15/2026 at 10:46:38 AM
The difference of course being that Gibraltar used to be Spanish, while Ceuta and Melilla never have been parts of Morocco. Portugal has more claim to those two enclaves than Morocco ever did.by martin8412
7/15/2026 at 10:49:44 AM
Ceuta and Melilla are part of Spain since the fifteenth century, same as Granada and way older than the Moroccan state.I am telling that Gibraltar people should decide which country they want to belong to, same thing with Ceuta and Melilla.
by amunozo
7/15/2026 at 12:26:42 PM
Time and time again the Gibraltar people tell Spain they don't want to be part of SpainTime and time again Spain complains
Time and time again hypocrites
I don't mind if you believe that "land makes right" or if you believe that "people have rights", but be consistent
by iso1631
7/15/2026 at 3:32:17 PM
I am saying, for the third time, that the people of Gibraltar are sovereing and have the right to choose. Same with Ceuta and Melilla.by amunozo
7/15/2026 at 10:52:43 AM
From my quick search, it doesn't at all seem like the majority of the people living in Ceuta and Melilla wish to be part of Morocco.by yoavm
7/15/2026 at 10:53:05 AM
I mean they said pretty clearly that they should respect the wishes of sovereignty for Gibraltar, so presumably they would also extend the same to Ceuta and Melilla.I think in a very abstract sense I agree that exclaves like this are weird and it would be cleaner if they didn't happen (Gibraltar returned to Spain, Ceuta and Melilla returned to Morocco), but that's thinking of this as a systems design problem rather than one that cares about people. I recognise that this is not an empathetic view, and my own opinion is worthless and I hold onto it very weakly.
by madeofpalk
7/15/2026 at 10:34:43 AM
Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens. Forcing those people out or seizing the land from them would be the definition of colonialism, yes. And exclaves exist all around the world. Geography has never really meant anything in national terms. Spain has a piece of land on Africa and I don't think they plan on giving that up.by kdheiwns
7/15/2026 at 10:41:52 AM
>Gibraltar has been part of the UK for over 300 years and the people are all UK citizens.Is this your standard for whether or not something is colonialism? Do you apply it consistently throughout, even when its inconvenient for you?
by Pragmata
7/15/2026 at 10:49:18 AM
My definition of colonialism generally involves people being subjugated and being treated as less and involuntarily part of an empire. People in Gibraltar are British citizens with full rights by definition.Land borders that one doesn't like doesn't equate to colonialism. It's just a land border that you don't like. The people of Gibraltar voted almost 100% to be British on more than one occasion. Trying to make them not British is the definition of colonialism
by kdheiwns
7/15/2026 at 10:54:46 AM
Each of these countries, enclaves, territories, settlements, borders have massive amounts of history that shape why they are the way they are, and attempting to say "this rule should apply equally to all of them" shows a huge misunderstanding of why they are unique.by maccard
7/15/2026 at 10:50:20 AM
"Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milk.After 10 generations, the people are every bit as local as the previous population was. 300 years is such an abyss of time that most of us would fail to name a single of our ancestors by name.
Kladsko was a Czech city from approx. 1000 to 1742. The old town still looks a bit like very small Prague [0]. Was lost in a war (to the Prussians no less), it is gone, not our anymore. Tough luck. Others live there now, it is theirs.
[0] https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladsko_(město)#/media/Soubor:...
#/media/Soubor:2014_Most_gotycki_i_kościół_MBR_w_Kłodzku.jpg){kind=link}
by inglor_cz
7/15/2026 at 3:21:14 PM
> "Colonialism" is a weird Western guilt fetish that some others successfully milkColonialism is the historical basis of almost all of global society today. It's not at all weird to be concerned with it when it still drives so much of the relative power dynamics between states and between people(s) today.
The example you're giving of Czechia and Prussia simply isn't an example of a colonial action.
by AlecSchueler
7/15/2026 at 10:15:02 PM
Do you consider the historic Arabic expansion across the middle east to be colonial, or is colonialism when boats?by BobaFloutist
7/15/2026 at 4:56:25 PM
That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth". I have even met people who claim that Russian expansion into Siberia was not colonialism, because it wasn't done using ships.I don't really buy it. It feels to me as unnatural as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence than theft of anything else.
It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology, or maybe very practical demands for reparations which shouldn't be hindered by other demands for reparations, and thus the others need to be downgraded pre-emptively.
It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures, such as bad security situation, rolling blackouts, subpar maintenance of infrastructure and endemic corruption. "Hey, don't look into this, you know how bad the colonialists were?"
(Fairly similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda tries to pin the failure of their current war of aggression on anyone and anything but their own stupid decision to go all in.)
by inglor_cz
7/15/2026 at 5:06:42 PM
> That requires buying into the very concept that "colonialism" is a specific sin different (and worse) from ye olde "I am stronger than you and will occupy your territory and take your wealth".It does, yes, and completely reasonably so. That's why it has a different name.
> .. as if somebody decided that theft of, say, a smartphone, was a separate and much graver offence...
Yes, it is like that indeed and I'm sure you'll recognise the difference between intellectual property theft and the theft of a car, or the difference between stealing food from a supermarket and stealing food from a beggar.
> I don't really buy it
> It only makes sense to me if there is an underlying ideology
Ok? Maybe read some more about it. Right now it feels like you're the one pushing an ideology without really making an argument for it.
> It may also come handy for distraction from domestic governance failures
Yes, it might. Governments have a host of ways to distract the public from issues. That doesn't change the reality of the history of, or contemporary effects of, colonialism.
> ... similar to the way the contemporary Russian propaganda ...
Boogeyman argument and an emotional appeal.
by AlecSchueler
7/15/2026 at 5:57:33 PM
I have read quite a lot about it and my conclusion is what I wrote above. A mostly ideological distinction without real difference - even less difference than your examples of theft (intellectual property aside - that is not theft by any definition, but infringement).People have always tried to conquer other territories, make use of them and settle them. To make an artificial slice out of this continuous and omnipresent phenomenon and call it by another name is incoherent, but then ideologies are mostly incoherent, and colonialism as a very specific sin was a very good and efficient argument in Cold War propaganda and its struggle for influence in the Third World.
Soviets excelled in propaganda, and many of their ideas (like AIDS being an artificial disease, unilateral nuclear disarmament, or the fake contrast between colonialism and membership in the Socialist Bloc) survived the fall of the country.
That said, a very similar line was already pushed by the Japanese in order to paint their own brutal empire as some kind of Pan-Asian utopia. But their trace in global discourse is negligible to the Soviet one, which was much more sophisticated and long-lasting.
by inglor_cz
7/15/2026 at 12:37:10 PM
I mean, do you think the east prussia should be returned to Germany? Should West Virginia be retrieved to Virginia?by halJordan
7/15/2026 at 3:22:43 PM
Those cases didn't involve colonisation. Though Virginia certainly did if you go back a little further.by AlecSchueler
7/15/2026 at 9:06:48 PM
Kaliningrad has been colonized properly by Russians, right after removing indigenous population.by general1465
7/15/2026 at 11:48:10 AM
There is one main difference, that makes UN recognizes Gibraltar as a colony and not Ceuta and Melilla: days before Gibraltar was conquered 100% of the people that lived there was moved out. This is why Gibraltar is a colony and Ceuta and Melilla not. So I don't have clear opinion if people in Gibraltar should have auto-determination or not.by Buxato
7/15/2026 at 10:40:58 AM
I was not talking about any of the points you mention, I was refering to the geographical facts alone. Wouldn't you agree that in general it is kind of silly to claim ownership of a piece of land that is far, far away from your own country?by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 10:46:43 AM
I was born in a country that has islands and I live in a different country that consists exclusively of islands. The islands spread out thousands of miles in various directions. Land being far apart is just a reality of how countries work.The distance from London to Gibraltar is closer than the distance from London to Bermuda, but nobody finds that weird. France has French Polynesia on the opposite side of the world. Russia has Kaliningrad. Norway has Svalbard. South Africa has another country, Lesotho, right in the middle of it. India wraps around Bangladesh like a tentacle. Azerbaijan has a random piece of land and makes a sandwich out of Armenia. Spain has islands directly west of Morocco. France has land on South America.
The whole world has freaky borders. The only clean borders are places like Wyoming and Colorado.
by kdheiwns
7/15/2026 at 10:50:05 AM
I would add natural navigation barriers such as rivers and lakes (and some, but not all, mountain ranges) to the list of "clean" borders. They're not straight lines, but they're a natural place to site a border.by rmunn
7/15/2026 at 10:48:13 AM
There are many, MANY islands scattered around Earth's oceans. Not all of them have the resources to be self-sufficient, so any inhabitants have to import goods from somewhere. There are two options: either each island is its own country, or some islands belong to some other country. Given how easy it is to navigate to most islands (some of them are in harder-to-navigate straits), it doesn't make much practical difference whether the owning country is close or far away.So no, as a general rule I can't agree. I can certainly agree that there are some rather silly cases, but it's just not practical for all islands to be self-governing, so I can't agree with the general rule you propose.
by rmunn
7/15/2026 at 12:32:50 PM
That may all be true, but you’re talking about voluntary affiliations here.Colonies are rarely ceded voluntarily, but are usually the result of an invasion or a lost conflict. The fact that this is no longer the case with Gibraltar today, because its inhabitants value the benefits of belonging to Britain, is simply a consequence of the time that has passed since then. It does not automatically undo the imperialist actions of the past.
by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 9:59:04 PM
Geography is not generally the most important factor. There are legal ownership precedents and then the will of the people who live there first. You can't just say Greenland or Canada are United States because the happen to be close. Or at least you shouldn't.by tim333
7/15/2026 at 10:35:39 AM
Whilst I don't disagree, Spain has similar questions to answer about Ceuta and Melilla.by manarth
7/15/2026 at 10:40:18 AM
"Ah, but that's different!" I was told when I asked some Spanish people about the apparent hypocrisy of Spanish enclaves.by hermitcrab
7/15/2026 at 11:50:43 AM
No, Ceuta and Melilla are not recognized as colonies by UN (see my previous comment about it, and you could add other historic reasons.by Buxato
7/15/2026 at 10:41:37 AM
And, to a lesser extent, Canary Islands.by darkwater
7/15/2026 at 10:38:16 AM
I didn't debate that.by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 12:10:44 PM
It's unlikely you'll try to debate anything. You're interested in agitation alone.by bbg2401
7/15/2026 at 12:34:52 PM
No, I'm just thinking about things on a more abstract level and wonder whether what is taken for granted really is always a given when doing so.by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 10:38:42 AM
There are many more places like this, e.g. Point Roberts[1].> Questions about ceding the territory to the United Kingdom and later to Canada have been raised since its creation; however, its status has remained unchanged.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts,_Washington
by thih9
7/15/2026 at 10:36:25 AM
We should just overturn the Treaty of Utrecht, that will go well. Why not return the Netherlands to Spain while we're at it?by pjc50
7/15/2026 at 10:36:56 AM
Spain ceded Gibraltar under the Treaty of Utrecht.by ChocolateGod
7/15/2026 at 10:54:46 AM
The British government have a strong, well-established (since ~1950), and arguably inflexible attitude towards "right to self-determination".Meaning: the people who live in a place get to decide who governs them and their society.
People in Gibraltar, The Falklands, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland all have different wants, needs and asks of the UK, and the UK honours all of them. There are other overseas territories with different relationships, plus the Commonwealth too.
If that ask changes (and in Northern Ireland it likely will in our lifetimes, the others less so), the governance will change.
Sometimes there is an ask for a closer relationship through the British Commonwealth (such as South Africa). Sometimes there is an ask for the UK to go away, thanks but no thanks (such as Malta). Each relationship is handled individually, but through a lens of self-determination. That's the priority in the FCO, in Parliament, in UK media. If a tiny nation wants to be British, the UK will go to war over it despite it making little sense (Falklands). If a tiny nation wants independence despite tactical advantage for UK to keep it, independence will be fought for (Malta happened, Diego Garcia is a WIP - watch this space). Where there is division (Northern Ireland), the majority view is observed, but with democratic and cultural structures created to try and make sure minority views have a voice in that governance.
That said, there is a caveat: observance of treaties tend to over-ride local preference in some cases, so if there is a legal argument to ignore the wishes of the locals, those wishes may be ignored: Hong Kong is the most prominent example of this in recent times (locals seemed to want to stay British, China said the 100-year agreement was up and there'd be no renewal, end of, so China it became).
Diego Garcia is another example, which has got messy because of the Whitehouse not understanding the UK's perverse inclination towards local democracy and the right to self-determination (see also non-UK entities the Whitehouse has not understood well: Greenland, absurd noises about Canada, and so on).
When able, the UK has consistently been committed to restoring governance to a local population's preferred model peacefully since ~1950 (India being the last real mess), and if the people of Gibraltar want to be governed by the Spanish, they'd be governed by the Spanish within ~2-3 years.
The idea that local people should have no say in this because "it's obvious" who "they belong to", is the colonialist notion here. A land isn't about geography. It's about people. It took a long time for the UK to understand this. Eventually they did. Most European colonial powers did. Others are still trying to catch up, it seems.
by PaulRobinson
7/15/2026 at 10:39:43 AM
It belongs to the people who live there. While you may think places like Point Roberts should be forcibly moved to Canada, or Ceuta should be forcibly moved to Morocco, I'm of the opinion of self determination, as is the global view based on the United Nations, who recognizes self-determination as the right of all peoples to freely determine their political status and pursue their economic, social, and cultural developmentThat's the same, whether it's Gibraltar, Scotland, Cornwall, the Canary Islands, Ceuta, Taiwan, Falklands, Cyprus, Texas, Point Roberts, Crimea, Canada, Greenland, etc etc.
We can argue about the thresholds needed, the length of time of residence ("squatters rights" etc), the minimum size of a given area, but the principal remains.
by iso1631
7/15/2026 at 10:45:45 AM
If it belongs to the people who live there, why does Britain have any say in their matters?by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 11:04:31 AM
Because the people who live there overwhelmingly (98%–99%) vote in favour of remaining British.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gibraltar_sovereignty_ref...
by manarth
7/15/2026 at 11:02:29 AM
Gibraltar have had two referendums on whether they want to be a part of Spain or the UK, and they have voted with an absolutely insane majority to choose to be part of the UK in both cases. This isn't like Brexit, or Scotland's IndyRef - there was a 96% turnout and a 99% vote in favour of the UK in 1967, and an 88% turnout with a 99% vote in favour again in 2002.by maccard
7/15/2026 at 10:54:36 AM
Why does Britain have any say in the people who live in, say, Liverpool? Because that's historically been British territory. So what's the difference? Only real difference I can see is length of history (a few hundred years vs. nearly a thousand years). But as far as I'm concerned, a few hundred years vs. nearly a thousand years doesn't make much difference. I'd argue that any territory that has belonged to country X for longer than all of its inhabitants have been alive has a pretty fair claim to be historical territory of country X, and should continue being part of country X unless there's a very good reason otherwise. (Such as a valid treaty, a clear referendum, and so on).It gets all complicated and messy when war is involved, of course. I'm talking about peaceful transfers of ownership here.
by rmunn
7/15/2026 at 11:05:45 AM
So you’re suggesting amnesia and ignoring the fact that Gibraltar wasn’t a blank spot on the map before it was annexed by the British. I think that’s a very one-sided view.by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 1:40:32 PM
Pretty much nowhere was a blank spot on the map before the current inhabitants took it over from the previous ones. Nor was it a blank spot when the previous inhabitants took it over from the ones who came before them. Many places in the world have changed hands dozens of times over the years, belonging first to the Babylonian Empire, then to the Medes and the Persians, then to the Romans, then... and so on, and so on. If you start counting past conquest as needing to be kept track of, you quickly end up in a maze of twisty little battles, all different. Where do you draw the line and say "Okay, well, the Romans count as being the original owners, but not the Medes or the Persians?"My opinion is that what your distant ancestors did should not be held against you — go far enough back and pretty much everyone has some ancestors who were good people, and some who did flat-out evil things — and that what happened 200 years ago is not a good argument for overturning the status quo. Some exceptions could apply, but "my ancestors took this land by force X number of years ago" is true of just about everyone, everywhere. The only sane thing to do is to hold the past lightly and consider what is the right thing for the current inhabitants today.
by rmunn
7/15/2026 at 2:18:07 PM
This is all true. Yet, all I’m hearing is "Water under the bridge! Annexion is just a thing humans do, get over it." and I think that’s too easy to say when you aren’t, for example, of African heritage. I simply believe that there are some historical events that are more inhumane (for the lack of a better word) than others. Where would you draw the line of acceptance if your country were to invaded, traded, or otherwise knocked down under the power of a foreign force? As I stated before: Was it a true (political, economical, defensive, ...) need for Britain to claim Gibraltar or was it great power politics aka greed disguised as such need?by unkeen
7/15/2026 at 3:13:20 PM
What you said was "why should Britain have any say in these matters?"; the question of "Did Britain have a need to claim Gibraltar back when?" is a different question entirely, which I am not qualified to answer, having never studied Gibraltar's history. I have studied a little, just a little, of African history, though — and I don't think you would have brought it up as an example if you knew much about it. Because warfare between different nations/tribes/empires/whatever (the terms have been different at various times) was a constant factor. To the point that for some countries, their lives were actually improved by being occupied by a foreign invader. Not all, and certainly not if the foreign invader was Belgium. (Goodness gracious, the Belgian occupation of Congo was a neverending parade of horribles).But Africa is such a huge continent, with such a variety of countries (each with their own complicated history) that pretty much any generality you can make about Africa is going to be wrong about large portions of the continent, and about large portions of the history of its various countries. It's perhaps not such a good example to talk about an entire complex continent for a simple point, so I should stop rambling on about it. (But I do recommend finding a book about the empire of Aksum sometime. It's fascinating).
by rmunn
7/15/2026 at 11:51:41 AM
So if we conquer a place and change the people there, it's the new people who decides? or how we proceed?by Buxato
7/15/2026 at 1:01:13 PM
It has always been thus. If you don't like the outcome of a war of conquest, you'll most likely have to start another war of conquest to try and get a different outcome.by yorwba
7/15/2026 at 1:39:57 PM
After 500 days? NoAfter 500 years? Yes
Somewhere between is reasonable to debate, but many people won't even agree on the principal of self determination, at least not consistently. Personally I wouldn't put the threshold longer than a human lifetime
by iso1631