7/18/2026 at 1:47:39 PM
I’ve owned a lot of Gopro cameras, having done video capture for a variety of motorsports, and they just got too expensive for what you get.You can be more expensive if you’re better, or you can be worse if you’re cheaper, but they’re both the downsides while living purely off brand recognition.
They also blew up in a time where there wasn’t any real competition. Sony had action cameras but they were bulkier and expensive, and didn’t have the features of GoPro.
These days other brands give better quality video in better quality hardware and more functionality, for cheaper.
by sen
7/18/2026 at 3:25:03 PM
GoPro is a US company designed in U.S. with manufacturing in Thailand, China, and Mexico.Insta360 is a Chinese company designed in Shenzhen and built there, too.
People think this doesn’t matter, but GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.
A similar pattern happened with drones with DJI, intentionally killing all non-Chinese drone brands. And with BambuLabs (founded by ex-DJI) with 3D printers (the only good non-Chinese printer that doesn’t cost 10-100x as much is Prusa, and they’re facing extremely strong headwinds).
Legitimately better Chinese products (incredible engineering) that have massive industrial policy support, probably industrial espionage support (as in the case of DJI for certain), massive influencer marketing campaigns, and near zero cost of capital. When China wants to deindustrialize non-Chinese industries for strategic and/or natsec reasons, they are incredibly good at it. (And note it’s not US-only, China targets basically ANY brand that isn’t Chinese. China absolutely does this to Europe as well… and you can see them doing it in real-time with automotive.)
The only surprising thing to me is how people just act like it’s not happening. I guess for people who don’t have any experience working on federal government adjacent aerospace stuff, the idea of natsec considerations for IT hardware seems entirely abstract, but it’s incredibly real if you do.
by Robotbeat
7/18/2026 at 3:44:18 PM
If your country’s industrial and defense policy relies on individual consumers making choices that are worse for them on almost all metrics, it’s time to think about on worse payroll your politicians are.by adrianN
7/18/2026 at 5:28:30 PM
Absolutely true. But China’s industrial dominance is also the government immiserating its people, just in a different way. Domestic consumption in China is famously low, work culture is famously bad (996,etc). And this is because of what their government, not the people of China, have chosen to do.by mlsu
7/18/2026 at 8:27:04 PM
>But China’s industrial dominance is also the government immiserating its peopleDidn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?
>Domestic consumption in China is famously low
Compared to what, the US? Compared to China is at a historical high, isn't it? And they're doing quite well even compared to like 70% of the world and rising.
by coldtea
7/18/2026 at 9:10:34 PM
> Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?Yes, but China-bad ideology demands that we ask ”at what cost?”
by faitswulff
7/19/2026 at 4:34:45 AM
I wonder if similar costs were paid when the West was industrializing?Spoiler: Yes.
by indemnity
7/18/2026 at 10:34:11 PM
There was a real human cost to how China industrialized that isn’t “muh freedoms”.China overproduced STEM grads so that their industries could hire them for pennies on the dollar. They had to withstand insane competition starting in elementary school, only to end up unemployed or doordashing.
This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).
by rangestransform
7/19/2026 at 1:03:46 AM
> having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for penniesI don't know why people keep bringing this up as though it is surprising.
In almost any field other than AI PhDs are underpaid on average.
There are many, many bio PhDs working as lab technicians.
by nl
7/19/2026 at 1:19:12 AM
> This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).Engineers from Taiwan go to mainland China these days to earn more money. Taiwan was pretty brutal with personal sacrifice in its development as much or if more than the mainland. We could say similar about Korea, Japan, and Singapore as well. This is why Asia seems to be taking over the world now, but the people are about as happy as you’d expect.
by seanmcdirmid
7/19/2026 at 12:49:22 AM
In general, I do think the East Asian nations have over-prioritized work for export and industrial policy at the expense of the well-being of their citizens.by Robotbeat
7/19/2026 at 7:12:43 AM
It feels to me more like, East Asian nations tend to have robust domestic sets of expectations that tend to be more stringent, reinforced by geological and cultural barriers, and comparatively lower international castes. Anyone born in EA have no choice but to constantly beat the average and to make contributions to the street cred jar for the nation. And that produce such things as TSMC chips and DJI drones and 7-11 egg salad sandwiches.by numpad0
7/18/2026 at 9:38:03 PM
China isn't bad, the CCP is.by UltraSane
7/18/2026 at 9:49:30 PM
That simplistic characterization is still essentially "China-bad." The CCP is the same government responsible for lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty. Does it make up for other human rights violations? No. But "CCP bad" flattens a complex and powerful political organization into a fairy tale boogeyman.by faitswulff
7/19/2026 at 3:24:25 AM
> lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty.Basically true, but not much more than that for most Chinese. The urban modern success story presented to the world is a surprisingly small segment of a notably larger population and even for many in that smaller more fortunate segment the gravy days are long ago and no sign of returning yet.
https://eastasiaforum.org/2011/08/19/in-the-city-but-not-of-...
by anjel
7/19/2026 at 3:35:34 AM
And chinese don't have full freedom of movement. China uses a system called called hukou which binds a persons rights and benefits to their birthplace. This has created a population of 350 million rural migrants who live in cities but still have a rural hukou and are treated like second class citizens in their own country.https://borgenproject.org/chinas-hukou-system-restricts-mobi...
by UltraSane
7/19/2026 at 6:23:09 AM
China is a communists based country. Everything is organized and for everything there is a plan. Unlike America where it's free for all. We probably would die from unhappiness in China. But it works for them and they are pretty successful in it.by holoduke
7/19/2026 at 4:41:36 PM
China is not actually communist anymore. It is totalitarian capitalistby UltraSane
7/19/2026 at 1:07:56 AM
The worst part of the CCP is it's hatred for free speechhttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jul/16/hong-kong-book...
Five arrested in Hong Kong bookstore raids in ‘seditious’ materials crackdown
Third round of arrests linked to independent bookshops widely regarded as clampdown on dissent in territory
by UltraSane
7/19/2026 at 4:13:01 PM
If that's the "worst part" about them, reacting like that to sedition plans, it sounds quite tame.It's not like people elsewhere, cough, are not arrested for protesting against the bombing in Palestine or against ICE. Or, on the other side of the pond (and on the other side of the political spectrum), for tweeting against illegal immigration to their country. Or in Germany for merely calling the chancellor an idiot.
by coldtea
7/19/2026 at 4:47:50 PM
[flagged]by UltraSane
7/19/2026 at 11:26:08 PM
A lot of us have very little love for authoritarian regimes.At the same time, all through out my life I have seen folks in the US us their fantasies CCP as reason to accept a government that they feel is the gold standard for freeedom.
I submit to you that what you're hearing are folks who are even more concerned with not being oppressed than you are telling you that it's not that great here for those of us on, say, the anarchist left or among the black radical tradition or whatever.
If your history begins at the fall of the berlin wall and you are happy about the ecological destruction being directly created by the US and the carcerial state it represents then of course you're going to read things the way you do.
But the reality is that most of us are just tired of hearing how fucking free the US is when they just sentenced 19 of our people in Texas to what are effectively life sentences for participating in a protest that went sideways when one participant decided he didn't want to see the state summarily execute a kid for vandalism.
by scarecrowbob
7/20/2026 at 1:10:33 AM
"A lot of us have very little love for authoritarian regimes."That is quite odd because the CCP is a very authoritarian regime.
Your words have very little relation to reality
You are outraged by the 19 people sentenced in Texas and SO AM I but this kind of political prosecution is unusual in the US but ABSOLUTELY ROUTINE in China.
by UltraSane
7/19/2026 at 7:59:47 AM
At this point you're just openly shilling for the CCP. The CCP killed millions of people through incompetence, and then they had the brilliant idea of copying the exact development model of the Asian Tigers. It's their previous incompetence that's the reason that they haven't already caught up with South Korea.by QuesnayJr
7/19/2026 at 8:34:23 AM
Millions? Please. CCP as it's now was created after reforms by Deng. Most people died due to Mao. CCP back then was only Mao loyalists. CCP endorsed Mao only to gain public legitimacy as the ruling party, since back then China was still a poor country prone to revolts and extremist ideas.by amrit3128
7/19/2026 at 9:28:09 AM
> CCP as it's now was created after reforms by Deng.Their policies changed, so they're no longer responsible for their own history?
by leereeves
7/19/2026 at 4:08:36 PM
The current generations are not responsible for historical things they didn't order or did.As for the country as an abstract in general, sure. As much as other countries are responsible for their own history.
by coldtea
7/19/2026 at 4:43:46 PM
I don't think most folks I know in the US are willing to touch the historical wrongs (genocide and slavery) with a 3.048M pole.by scarecrowbob
7/19/2026 at 10:07:52 PM
Nothing the US has done is covered up the way the CCP has covered up the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre.by UltraSane
7/19/2026 at 5:46:25 PM
> I don't think most folks I know in the US are willing to touch the historical wrongs (genocide and slavery) with a 3.048M pole.I hear those discussed quite often in the US. Someone is obviously willing. And more importantly, it's legal.
by leereeves
7/19/2026 at 9:49:27 AM
> The CCP is the same government responsible for lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty.The CCP also put most of those people into such abject poverty from the 50s onwards. They give up on communism and thereby reversed the problems caused by communism like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
by graemep
7/19/2026 at 6:20:28 AM
The CCP now has proved a 'better' system than the western 'democracy' that is in many ways at the end of its life.by holoduke
7/19/2026 at 8:02:55 AM
Both systems are at end-of-life. If anything, China is closer to the end. The total fertility rate in China is down to 1, while the US is 1.62.by QuesnayJr
7/19/2026 at 4:15:26 PM
It's as if the introduction of market capitalism and consumerism into a country craters the fertility rate and dooms it!by coldtea
7/19/2026 at 9:46:44 AM
> Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?A lot of that was the result of stopping doing the damage they had done in previous five decades that resulted in such a high proportion of their population living in poverty.
by graemep
7/19/2026 at 12:01:57 AM
For bringing people out of poverty, they had laminated placards attached to the doors of people who were poor, and the name of the government official who was responsible for lifting that family out of poverty, and if that government official failed at it, they wouldn't advance in their career.by fragmede
7/20/2026 at 12:27:18 PM
That's actually kind of brilliant.by 20after4
7/19/2026 at 12:48:09 AM
Not as much as their East Asian neighbors, who had increasing democracy and fewer deaths to starvation…by Robotbeat
7/19/2026 at 7:32:42 AM
Their economy has grown, and continues to grow faster than that of any of their neighbors.by vkou
7/19/2026 at 11:03:10 AM
The Eastern neighbors all also had way more outside funding....by hmm37
7/19/2026 at 6:16:57 AM
[dead]by Iakeman
7/18/2026 at 10:44:13 PM
>Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?So did the western world.
Ask Poland, the Baltics and East Germany if they want communism back. I'll wait. :)
I am so tired of the praise of China online while condemning the west. Worst part is you probably live in the west.
*Nono, dont reply, just downvote instead :)
by Scroll_Swe
7/18/2026 at 11:31:48 PM
China is not Iron Curtain countries dominated by the USSR. to compare China to Poland has no merit.China has built high speed rail, a quality universal health care system, and huge tech and mfg sectors. It most certainly is orders of magnitude above East Germany, and not even the same type of socialism.
There are good things about the West and good things about China, it’s not as simple as “our side good”.
by kanbara
7/18/2026 at 11:35:04 PM
China is still a dictatorship who massacred its own people despite building high speed rail...They only got it good when the USA opened relations in the 80s something they never did with Soviet.
China does not have universal health care.
China helps Russia invade Ukraine. That is simple. Unless you like that too?
Also, where do people want to live? North EU. Yet when we keep our lands people call us racist.
by Scroll_Swe
7/18/2026 at 11:53:40 PM
And the US calls itself a democracy and kills innocent people abroad.I don't see any merit in these simplistic world views.
The world isn't Lord of the Rings, it's more A Song Of Ice And Fire.
by OtomotO
7/19/2026 at 5:07:14 AM
Can't a democracy vote and agree to kill innocent people abroad? Not sure those things are discordant.by spunker540
7/19/2026 at 7:36:18 AM
It can. Which probably justifies 9/11 if you see it that way.by lmz
7/19/2026 at 6:30:26 AM
Are you serious? Who is killing thousands abroad and playing corrupt mobster mister policeman in the entire world? Or course China is supporting Russia. It's geopolitics. The west needs enlargement of their influence in Ukraine. Russia doesn't like this. A failing Russia means China is next. Hard to understand? And China does have universal affordable healthcare. Maybe, just maybe you should visit one of the large cities in China. You will be surprised how far ahead they are on so many areas. Infrastructure, cultural, government structures, schools, hospitals and more.by holoduke
7/19/2026 at 10:11:56 AM
>The west needs enlargement of their influence in UkraineOkay so you have swallowed the Russia and China propaganda fully. Yes, China has better living conditions now than 20 years ago.
Ukraine is its own country since 1991 and on their own want to move closer to the west, NATO and EU.
Russia invaded Ukraine as Putin is the one who want "enlargement of their influence"
If you think above, how can you blame me in the west for opposing Russia and China? I live in Sweden, we have Kaliningrad with nukes right across us. We had Soviet submarines in our waters in the 80s.
A fallen Ukraine means Russia and Putin and by extension China will invade the Baltics or Poland next. Hard to understand?
Where do you live?
by Scroll_Swe
7/19/2026 at 5:36:16 PM
Ukraine is not an independent country. The entire culture is practically similar to the Russian one. Yes I have lived in Ukraine (Melitopol) for many years. This whole conflict is 100% caused by the west that tries to put a wig between the two nations. By bribing and buying up assets in Ukraine. Starting from around 2012 when western institutions installing puppets in various places. Government and commercial. Don't tell me this is somekind of crap conspiracy. We all know that the west performed these actions many times before. The west is not clean in this war. 100% responsible for this war, killings and destruction .by holoduke
7/21/2026 at 5:38:19 PM
>Ukraine is not an independent countryThey are.
You are spouting Russian propaganda 100% how it's all the wests fault. Putin and Russia is the one 100% responsible. Cannot belive I read this on Hn but sadly more and more anti western, pro russia and pro palestine crap is here.
by Scroll_Swe
7/18/2026 at 11:38:58 PM
Did that comment indicate any condemnation of the west?What I'm tired of is zero-sum jingoistic nationalism of any kind. Can we just be happy for all of the world to prosper?
edit: I didn't downvote you but it's probably the uncalled-for cynicism.
by jrowen
7/18/2026 at 11:49:43 PM
Nationalism is a cancerby faitswulff
7/18/2026 at 11:35:12 PM
>Ask Poland, the Baltics and East Germany if they want communism back. I'll wait. :)We could, but don't expect the results to be as clear cut as you think :)
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-...
https://www.economist.com/europe/2017/10/12/many-eastern-eur...
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2009/11/02/end-of-communi...
https://brnodaily.com/2023/11/20/news/poll-17-of-czechs-say-...
https://english.radio.cz/poll-less-25-feel-better-now-under-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_nostalgia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie
And of course 2026 China is the very opposite of some failing economy, like Eastern Bloc countries have been in 1989.
by coldtea
7/19/2026 at 5:54:02 AM
Many eastern europeans who had good life in soviet block have nostalgia, however, Ukraine fights with all it power to prevent returning back to soviet block, because majority have very unpleasant memories of soviet times and dozens of millions murdered by soviets.by oneshtein
7/19/2026 at 9:05:00 AM
Ukrainians were the Soviets. It's like Scotland complaining about British colonial policy.by orthoxerox
7/19/2026 at 10:26:03 AM
Ukraine broke out of Russian Empire and then conquered back by Red army, then conquered Republics of Ukraine and Belarus together with Russian Federation formed USSR.So, yes, Ukrainian communists were with those soviets, who murdered other Ukrainians (and other enslaved nations), and then their siblings have nostalgia about «good times».
by oneshtein
7/19/2026 at 10:04:38 AM
That is not a good analogy. Scotland voluntarily formed a union with the rest of the UK and played a disproportionate role in colonialism. Ireland would be a better one.The weakness in the GP's argument is that Russia is not the Soviet Union, nor is it communist.
by graemep
7/19/2026 at 6:35:21 AM
[dead]by Iakeman
7/19/2026 at 3:21:09 AM
Yes, their system has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, but government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would be in order to support domestic industry. It seem’s to be for geo-strategic reasons rather than in the interests of the Chinese people, it’s also probably unsustainable.by simplisticelk
7/19/2026 at 4:12:30 AM
WOW the classic yes...but..., where's these statement coming from? I'm Chinese and I don't get the point here at all, you guys seem living in vacuum with biased news, and know much much better than we people living here, that's really confusing everytime I see/read comments lie this.China now is open freely for almost everyone, come and see by yourslef, if you not living poverty.
The world itslef does not work the propaganda way whether you dislike or hate the gov for whatever reason. And yes you can criticize the gov as you like with the news you read otr the party you pro with, but never assume how the people feel and belives if you are not the people, and if you do then that's the same mindset as Trump or any other war-bringing president the US had, and you know what they did and still doing.
by shunia_huang
7/19/2026 at 4:45:15 AM
Tell your neighbors, friends, and government bureaucrats about the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre.Let me know how that goes.
by AuthorizedCust
7/19/2026 at 4:18:06 PM
Probably about as well a if you told them about ICE. Or if you complained against the war at Kent state university.by coldtea
7/19/2026 at 6:24:57 AM
Is that all you can find? Pretty empty list. I can probably create a long list of atrocities done by the west last 5 years alone.by holoduke
7/19/2026 at 9:28:16 AM
That is the point. You can create the list openly and without fear.You can create a long list of Chinese atrocities, but mentioning even one will get you into a lot of trouble.
by graemep
7/19/2026 at 9:23:38 AM
China interns a million Uigurians and other people with beliefs.by killerpopiller
7/19/2026 at 7:36:19 AM
> government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would beRight, that sort of thing never happens over here. We don't give the rich tax breaks while robbing the middle class (and saddling it with mountains of debt that will be coming due in their future), we don't print money hand over fist to fund idiotic wars and other vanity projects, and we don't do everything in our power to prevent workers from organizing for higher wages and better working conditions.
Congress and the executive is hard at work to make the American consumer richer than they otherwise would be. Everything they do is with that goal solely in their minds. It's all they live for, not for making their backers and friends richer and more untouchable.
by vkou
7/19/2026 at 8:06:14 AM
If governments introduced a whataboutism sin tax, they could solve budget deficits overnight.by QuesnayJr
7/19/2026 at 9:59:08 AM
Let's look at the thread of discussion.> Assertion that China has brought incredible prosperity to its people.
> Complaint that actually, China's economic policies that brought that prosperity are... Structurally robbing its working class.
> Observation that America, which, presumably, is the model for the best, most evolved, and un-improvable structure for its economy is also structurally robbing its working class, with no roadmap for course-correction from it. (And it's doing it for purposes that are not exactly developing the nation!)
> "That's Whataboutism!"
The complaint in #2 is only relevant as a relative comparison. China's economics structurally rob its working class? Okay, let's all agree that's the case - but rob it compared to what? The unchecked late-stage corporatism that we're practicing? The excesses of the industrial revolution in past centuries? It's bad compared to what, exactly? Some idealized strawman utopia, where no economic planning or monetary policy or deficit spending or consolidation of economic power exists? Do you have a roadmap for getting to that one?
The observation in #3 incredibly relevant. If you're not making a relative comparison of China's economy, you need to make an absolute analysis of it... And on an absolute analysis, it has done an incredible job of lifting hundreds of millions of people out of crushing poverty, and into first-world lifestyles, in only a few decades. All the central planning - control of its exchange rates, its monetary and debt and lending policy, it's focus on exports and fundamentals and R&D and education is exactly what has brought that prosperity about.
Meanwhile, the only thing our central planners, here at home are good at figuring out [1] is how to widen the gap between the haves, and the have-nots.
---
[1] I am being a bit too harsh, the Fed does a good job given its mandate.
by vkou
7/19/2026 at 10:02:06 AM
> but government policy is now making Chinese consumers poorer than they otherwise would beWhat country has perfect government policy?
The US has atrocious government policies. Costs of college, cost of healthcare insurance, the reason so many uninsured people use the ER as their primary medical usage, tax policy prioritization of capital reinvestment over wage earnings, caring for the environment over affordable housing, etc are all problematic policy outcomes which make the average person poorer.
They are also unsustainable.
by thephyber
7/18/2026 at 10:35:48 PM
Work Culture is famously bad? Look I get 996. The Youth seem like they are either next level burned out or on a treadmill that never ends(due to the 25% youth unemployment, the deflation happening and the extreme overabundance of educated professionals). Both are not good. But the original comment listed stellar companies and products that wipe the floor with American made junk. You don't get that without some extensive hard work. Stealing only takes to so far, you gotta do a lot more on top of that.by saturn8601
7/19/2026 at 4:44:42 AM
Not for nothing, but what do you think is happening in the United States?American workers have lost income on inflation adjusted terms from 2000-2025. The top 5 companies have a market cap that exceeds the top 30 in 2000, and the concentration of those companies is a single industry vs a diverse collection.
Consolidation of power and capital is reality everywhere. China is not a boogeyman. Go there.
by Spooky23
7/18/2026 at 6:14:49 PM
Consumption is not just low, it’s intentionally suppressed.by lokar
7/18/2026 at 7:38:20 PM
> who’s payroll your politicians are onIt doesn’t even have to be foreign - it can just be corrupt self interest.
What other explanation is there for attacking Venezuela and Iran?
by lostlogin
7/19/2026 at 2:43:17 AM
I don't even think it's corrupt self-interest. Just idiotic bravado and wanting to settle long held grudges.by Robotbeat
7/19/2026 at 3:13:46 AM
Distraction from the Epstein filesby voicedYoda
7/18/2026 at 8:54:36 PM
You’re getting downvoted for this which is crazy.by zzzbra
7/19/2026 at 6:51:04 AM
[dead]by jtavner
7/18/2026 at 7:50:50 PM
Its more like lack of policy. To be clear, we are talking about China winning IoT hardware industry in this case. That’s not a policy.You could ban Chinese IoT devices. Or spur local industry. But we aren’t talking about the military relying on Chinese hardware or something.
by nonethewiser
7/18/2026 at 10:04:55 PM
This is the idea behind a tariffby groundzeros2015
7/18/2026 at 10:28:59 PM
The "idea" of Trump's tariffs (if there ever was one) is to subvert the US constitution which places taxation under the control of congress, not the president.by t0mpr1c3
7/18/2026 at 11:42:44 PM
The person you replied to did not mention a specific leader's policy.by Brendinooo
7/18/2026 at 10:39:29 PM
False. Tariffs are a standard foreign policy tool used as an economic negotiating tactic.by spacewrangler
7/18/2026 at 11:18:00 PM
The US government is literally refunding the tariffs because they were illegal.by t0mpr1c3
7/19/2026 at 8:27:36 PM
Tariffs still exist, some were ordered to stop, but there are plenty still being implemented today, and will be in the future; regardless of which party is in power.by spacewrangler
7/18/2026 at 11:42:29 PM
That doesn’t respond to this comment.by groundzeros2015
7/19/2026 at 7:30:45 AM
Doesn't this apply to China in the first place? Their GFW practically blocked such choices for decades already.by handle584
7/19/2026 at 5:47:54 AM
So Trump was right to call for tariffs?by wisty
7/19/2026 at 11:58:36 AM
There's no real solution other than long-term tariffs. However the President doesn't have the power to do it and Congress doesn't have the willpower. 6-month flash-in-the-pan efforts can only cause chaos.by romaaeterna
7/19/2026 at 4:29:43 AM
It's easy to get all high and mighty but there really doesn't have to be complex subterfuge behind "replacing the majority of our technical infrastructure with devices solely created within the borders of our primary military, industrial, and economic rival is not a good idea for security and sovereignty."We cast aside local manufacturing for cheaper prices in another country and are going to pay the price one way or another.
by skitsofrandom
7/19/2026 at 1:19:11 PM
GoPro was outcompeted on the market. Simple as that.They were made irrelevant by Insta360 and DJI, both with legitimately better products.
In my view, the only entity to blame for that is GoPro. And I believe that the shortfall was not only in matters of technology. My limited interactions with them painted a picture of an organisation with some super clever people, but paralysed by slow bureaucracy and high risk aversion.
By contrast, Insta360 was much more aggressive and enterprising, while DJI just did what DJI does: build amazing products.
Trying to blame this on some arcane Chinese plot to destroy the West is just a weak attempt to cope with reality: in China today there is simply much higher number of hard working, highly intelligent, highly educated people that are hungry for success then there are in the West.
One thing we forget is that the two great Chinese companies in this space (Insta and DJI) had first to compete against hundreds (thousands?) of other Chinese camera companies before they could come out on the top and compete globally.
They are not a product of a CCP plot. They are a result of a ruthlessly competitive and capable local ecosystem, itself a result of decades of consistent industrial and innovation policy.
Nothing is stopping us in the EU and US to do the same.
by TooSmugToFail
7/18/2026 at 4:00:13 PM
Reads to me like it's free market doing its job, if you think of countries as companies. US just needs to step up its game.by gchamonlive
7/18/2026 at 5:10:30 PM
It's not really a free market when one country is heavily subsidizing it's industriesby jaapz
7/18/2026 at 9:12:23 PM
It is not as though other countries could not choose do the same.It seem to me that China choosing to subsidize industry it is not so different than the US choosing to subsidize Roads, Autos and OIL.
In both cases it does seem to work splendidly as intended.
Other than political inertia (or economic reasons far beyond my ability to fathom) there is nothing to stop the US from following suit.
I accept "free market" is a term of art probably from before global trade reality and could be narrowly redefined to mean whatever one wants (or wanted when it was coined) but in my ignorance I see it simply as free to choose actions and responses.
But I am far far away from opinions I am qualified to hold, think I will shut up now.
by tejtm
7/19/2026 at 2:55:32 AM
> roadsI think even the Chicago school would agree that roads should be public
> autos
I absolutely detest US policy with respect to autos so I will not refute this
> oil
Matter of strategic importance that isn’t related to spying or subterfuge. The Nazis probably would have won WWII if they hadn’t run out of diesel. I’m not sure digital cameras come close to this.
by whall6
7/19/2026 at 4:03:16 AM
But you could imagine a country that invested, in addition to roads, cars, and oil, in public transportation, cities that you can get around on foot, and in renewable energy. Such a country might be better off that the US is now.by pastel8739
7/19/2026 at 7:52:04 AM
Not everyone wants public transport. I never use it. Don’t like being so close to other people. And it is much more expensive where I live. Four friends going for a day trip to the big city is €120+ by train and bus.Had another look. It’s €265 just for the four train tickets alone, in the lowest class. €375 if you want to travel in comfort class. Two hour journey.
by artisinal
7/19/2026 at 4:19:33 PM
You could imagine that this wasn’t the case, right? Or you could imagine that investing in it for those people who do want it might improve your own life (e.g. by reducing traffic) not to mention society as a whole?by pastel8739
7/19/2026 at 4:52:05 PM
I just look at what the most efficient form of transport is for the trip I’m taking. And the answer is never public transit.Don’t really mind or care what other people do.
by artisinal
7/18/2026 at 10:24:05 PM
I think the overwhelming and undeniable success and prosperity of China is the biggest concern to the west, the neoliberals consistently predicted their immediate downfall that never came. Except we are all still led by the same neoliberals proven wrong about everything, the contradictions everywhere are driving us all into collective insanity. If we don't manage to purge our media and governments from these vile people the only path forward is collective decline, increased totalitarianism and our repression leading to a war with China. Wars don't always end in the right side winning, and the cold war was won by the wrong side.by lyu07282
7/18/2026 at 11:19:39 PM
Thanks, not to disagree but it may be best to use plain language as I do not know what a neoliberal is to me never mind what it means to you.I do know liberal is used as a derisive term by the people we (US) are being led by which leads me to cognitive dissonance parsing your statement.
by tejtm
7/19/2026 at 12:42:10 PM
> the neoliberals consistently predicted their immediate downfall that never came.That doesn't seem correct. Wasn't the predication that once China started to become successful they'd open up and become more democratic?
Which clearly didn't happen, as per the outright slaughter of the Chinese university students who were protesting in 1989: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests...
by justinclift
7/18/2026 at 7:43:04 PM
So ridiculous. So a bit of subsidy is ok, but no more than the US does? As a country that’s suffered from the US subsidising its own industries, my sympathy is zero.by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 10:06:05 PM
> As a country that’s suffered from the US subsidising its own industries
by throwaway2037
7/18/2026 at 11:00:54 PM
> What country and what industries?New Zealand. Meat exports and dairy.
by lostlogin
7/19/2026 at 4:44:55 AM
I would assume that China is your biggest trade partner for both of those categories. Is the US a major trade partner for either of those categories? I find it hard to believe. The US (and most rich countries) have way too much domestic dairy farm capacity. As a result, there is lots of govt subsidies paid to dairy farmers.by throwaway2037
7/19/2026 at 10:43:06 AM
The US is our largest market for meat exports. Our top dairy markets are all in Asia, China being too.https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/meat-exports-reach-10-billion...
https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/growth-in-export-markets-for-...
by lostlogin
7/20/2026 at 5:10:10 AM
> The US (and most rich countries) have way too much domestic dairy farm capacity. As a result, there is lots of govt subsidies paid to dairy farmers.I think you might have cause and effect switched around.
by antod
7/18/2026 at 10:39:25 PM
This particular complaint is tripple hypocritical. US whole deal is to sell under price until competition dies and only then bring up prices or remove offering.It winner takes all econony is literally based on destroying the competition as such.
by watwut
7/18/2026 at 10:59:15 PM
Ignoring foreign patents also played a big part in US industrialization.by t0mpr1c3
7/18/2026 at 5:14:32 PM
and the US famously never subsidizes any of its industries...by nikisweeting
7/18/2026 at 6:03:05 PM
> Between 2005 and 2024, Chinese firms received on average three to eight times more subsidies than competitors in OECD economies.https://www.oecd.org/en/blogs/2026/06/industrial-subsidies-h...
by creato
7/18/2026 at 6:18:08 PM
I can't read this seriously while being unable to buy any Chinese EVs here in the US.by baby
7/18/2026 at 8:49:59 PM
You can't buy Chinese EVs in the US because China is overtly running a dumping campaign for them. It's an interesting story, read up on it!by tptacek
7/19/2026 at 3:21:48 AM
I read up on it, and it's not clear to me that it's actual dumping.As in "selling below the cost of production".
I would say that China is trying to steer the car makers away from competing locally, as it's going to result in a price war. But that's not quite dumping per se.
by cyberax
7/18/2026 at 10:41:38 PM
That is (factually) a giant overstatement, and ignores domestic US politics.It's almost like you believe the US remains interested in promoting free trade.
If it did, it wouldn't be levying illegal and constantly changing import tariffs, in violation of international trade agreements that it has signed up to.
by t0mpr1c3
7/19/2026 at 4:31:05 PM
I'm waiting for one of these "no you're wrong" comments to explain why it is that I'm wrong. I get that I didn't provide evidence either, but I'm relating the conventional wisdom on BYD-type cars. The C.W. is often wrong! But, like, you have to say why.by tptacek
7/19/2026 at 6:39:57 PM
Hitchen's Razorby t0mpr1c3
7/18/2026 at 10:19:37 PM
Wait - what?You cannot buy them because they are dumping them??????
by awesome_dude
7/18/2026 at 10:31:44 PM
"Dumping" is a term of art in international trade.It's the thing that happens when a foreign exporter sells goods in your country below their production cost (or far below what they're charging domestic customers). It's done to fuck up the foreign markets for those goods, or, in China's case, as a relief valve for malinvestment.
China drastically overfunds EV production. There's a whole weird story where provinces apparently competed to get slices of the EV production business, which resulted in a large number of competing firms, producing far more vehicles than the Chinese domestic market could consume.
This isn't just a US thing. Europe tariffs the heck out of these cars.
by tptacek
7/18/2026 at 10:41:23 PM
Yes, I am well aware of the definition of dumping - that fails to explain why people cannot buy them.If they're being dumped there is an oversupply, and people are spoilt for choice. The market is awash with the dumped product.
Not being able to buy them is the exact reverse of that.
by awesome_dude
7/18/2026 at 10:50:38 PM
The entire point of anti-dumping actions is that left unregulated, people will buy these unsubsidized cars.by tptacek
7/18/2026 at 11:46:14 PM
Right - your comment was very poorly articulated - and loaded with supposition.Your claim is that the reason people cannot buy the vehicles ISN'T because they are being dumped BUT because the government SAYS they are being dumped and has therefore actively prevented them from being sold.
The supposition is that it's an accurate claim by the governments - there are reports that the Chinese manufacturers are being restricted by their government and that there has been a period of over production, but how much of that is true and how much is propaganda is very difficult to actually ascertain.
by awesome_dude
7/19/2026 at 12:18:17 AM
I don't know what you're trying to say here. I don't think there's a serious dispute about whether China is dumping EVs, and the US isn't the only place claiming that.by tptacek
7/18/2026 at 10:41:35 PM
The whole SV is based on dumping. And was for decades.by watwut
7/18/2026 at 10:50:00 PM
I don't know how this is supposed to respond to what I just wrote. If an EU country restricted contracts or usage with Google or OpenAI, I wouldn't call them out for doing so. All I'm saying is that it's especially clear why Chinese EVs are impeded from selling in the US.by tptacek
7/19/2026 at 4:42:59 AM
Interesting that they are “dumping” them in Australia and other countries at prices that are competitive but far above what they cost in China.Below cost of production my ass.
The only Western car company even competing with them is Tesla, who people love to hate for ideological reasons.
Calling what Chinese companies are doing “dumping” is pure cope for the utter failures of Western companies.
Look at my post history, I’m not pro-China at all, but I am a realist and can see the evidence with my own eyes since we can actually get the vehicles here.
I give it 5 years for Western and Japanese companies to be decimated in this market. Can’t say they don’t deserve it.
by indemnity
7/19/2026 at 5:19:40 AM
[flagged]by mvdtnz
7/18/2026 at 7:43:47 PM
What’s the level of subsidy that’s ok?by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 10:09:08 PM
I'll take a stab. How about something like not more than 50% greater than OECD average per industry? My point: It seems reasonable that some countries was to specialise in certain areas. For example: Taiwan and (East!) Germany chose to build-out their semiconductor industry starting in the 1980s. It has paid pretty good dividends with a healthy amount of industrial subsidies. I also think the OECD should be raising tariff rates to protect against ridiculous levels of Chinese subsidies.by throwaway2037
7/18/2026 at 11:00:27 PM
Appeals to fairness are difficult to accept when the rest of us out here in the world have been hurt by the US imposing tariffs and sanctions on us over the past few decades, and with intense chaotic energy in the last few years.How do we make a system everyone is to abide by when the US can just rewrite the rules when it suits? Order collapses when a huge country behaves this way.
by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 10:46:25 PM
Quite a few members of the OECD have already done so.by t0mpr1c3
7/19/2026 at 6:51:48 AM
[dead]by jtavner
7/19/2026 at 6:50:09 AM
"my level" - $1 more is cheatingby blitzar
7/19/2026 at 6:52:22 AM
[dead]by jtavner
7/18/2026 at 5:38:43 PM
Which industries are the US leading in because of subsidies?by gruez
7/18/2026 at 6:54:32 PM
Arms, weapons, fighter jets and so on. The US sounds a trillion $ a year subsidizing the military industrial complex.The US chose their market (arms). The Chinese chose consumer goods. Go figure.
by bruce511
7/18/2026 at 7:37:09 PM
Basically every "made in USA" consumer product has a DOD contract. The DOD is mandated by law to purchase from US companies, so there is a huge sector of small-to-medium businesses which only exist because there is a guaranteed order coming every quarter for uniforms or boots or other equipment that would likely be 1/3 the price if they were contract-manufactured in China or Vietnam.Not saying this is uniformly bad, because without the law the number of businesses with the ability to manufacture this stuff would trend toward zero, but it is a form of subsidy.
by tadfisher
7/18/2026 at 10:11:55 PM
I wonder if this pattern is true for all militaries in rich countries. I think it sounds like good economic policy. If you want to grow your military, then you need to make sure it is spent domestically. Also, the "finish good" may include lots of parts that were built overseas. Think about a Tomohawk missile: I am sure the microchips are all made overseas. That said, the intellectual property is developed domestically (or with very close allies) and final assembly is done domestically.by throwaway2037
7/19/2026 at 12:02:08 AM
US Arms exports bring in around $13 billion a year. The military industrial complex is a domestic jobs program that sells the vast majority of what it makes domestically. The US is clearly not spending a trillion dollars a year subsidizing defense in order to make their products more competitive in other markets.by sarchertech
7/19/2026 at 2:59:26 AM
I'm not sure I agree. In the aircraft industry especially the US has strongly pushed for exports. Overseas programs (TRS2, Avro Arrow) were terminated for political reasons (and replaced with F111 etc). More recently see F35 impact.That's before we discuss the advantage Boeing has in the commercial market thanks to DoD contracts.
Your link shows that the US exports the same as the next 20 countries added together. That suggests some market dominance.
I also suspect these numbers do not include "military aid" - where weapons and munitions are "given" by the US to Ukraine wherever[1]. (But they may, I don't know.)
I agree though that the primary benefit of this is not "sales". And even if it was these aren't consumer goods. So it's not easily compared to China's approach. I'm not suggesting it's a terribly good subsidy. But it's still a subsidy.
[1] there are a lot of political benefits to be gained by having bases in foreign countries, or by port visits by US ships. Unfortunately most of those benefits have been eroded in the last 2 years. The gutting of USAid (which saved basically nothing), leaving the WHO, the tarrif nonsense, bombing Iran - all have destroyed a benevolent reputation 75 years in the making.
by bruce511
7/19/2026 at 5:25:03 AM
Sure the US benefits by giving arms to Ukraine, or having bases in other countries.But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand which is market dominance for some industry.
>Boeing DOD contracts
This is probably the closest comparison to what China is doing. But it’s still not the same thing because the US buys equipment from Boeing, they don’t just give them direct subsidies.
The equivalent would be if China awarded Bambu a contract to provide 3d printers to schools.
To the extent that the US pursues policies that help defense companies. They don’t do it in order to help those companies compete in foreign markets. They do it because they want those companies not to go out of business for national security reasons, or because they want those companies to provide domestic jobs.
The US does other shady things, but spending massive amounts to help domestic companies outcompete foreign companies in foreign markets isn’t one of them.
by sarchertech
7/20/2026 at 1:44:50 AM
Oh I agree. The US is not doing the same thing as China at all.China is spending its money developing manufacturing of goods the world wants. It has targeted markets and the govt is spending money in those markets. The markets they have chosen have huge economic and political value.
By contrast the US has chosen to spend its (govt) money on the military. Because, you know, national security.
The US is spending just as much money as China, but focused on different areas. Your complaint (if there is one) is that China chose different markets and didn't "play the game" (as the USSR did) and base their economy on flashy weapons.
Since the collapse of the USSR in 1990 its not clear to me why US spending on military continues to grow. It's not fear of attack; there is no threat to the US itself. It has to be a desire to project power and influence.
And yet the very limitations of that goal have been exposed in 18 months. The dismantling of USAid (or more accurately the manner of the dismantling) has destroyed 75 years of goodwill. Coupled with punitive tarifs (which are paid for by US consumers) they make the US an unreliable trade partner.
Then the war in Iran showed the very real limitations of the military. To be fair they're currently being lead by incompetence, with no clear goals or strategies. But it reinforces the point that all that military money is wasted when even simple conflicts are lost. And it further drives home the limits of that power projection in unpopular conflicts. A lesson, it would seem, the US wishes to re-learn all the time.
China it seems has different ambitions, and a very different strategy. And I get why you might not like that, because maybe (just maybe) their strategy is the smarter one in the long run.
by bruce511
7/20/2026 at 9:02:01 PM
In terms of PPP, China spends about 60% of what the US does. And looking at the trend over the last 15 years, that number will overtake the US fairly soon.> Since the collapse of the USSR in 1990 its not clear to me why US spending on military continues to grow. It's not fear of attack; there is no threat to the US itself. It has to be a desire to project power and influence.
The exact same thing is true for China. They can’t be afraid of attack. They have the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal and the 2nd or 3rd most powerful military in the world. Yet they keep growing their military.
> The dismantling of USAid (or more accurately the manner of the dismantling) has destroyed 75 years of goodwill. Coupled with punitive tarifs (which are paid for by US consumers) they make the US an unreliable trade partner.
We have an idiot in the White House. Even when I (very rarely) agree with him on things like tariffs are useful for preventing foreign state sponsored companies from wiping out important domestic industries, he implements them in the most inept way possible.
by sarchertech
7/18/2026 at 7:32:32 PM
Sadly, consumer goods are the new arms (drones, batteries, etc)by mstachowiak
7/18/2026 at 6:19:05 PM
Oil, natural gas, corn (for fuel), soybeans (for cattle feed)by nick238
7/18/2026 at 5:48:33 PM
If a country hands out enormous subsidies but yet isn't leading in anything, then maybe it's time to consider what structural reasons are causing these subsidies to be squandered and whose bottom lines are being padded.by greyb
7/18/2026 at 6:08:31 PM
What US industries get anywhere near Chinese level subsidies.by sarchertech
7/18/2026 at 6:19:20 PM
I heard that when some country wants to pay in a different currency than USD for oil, a coup suddenly happens, or a helicopter comes and the president gets kidnappedby baby
7/18/2026 at 6:29:09 PM
The US dollar being the global reserve currency makes exports more expensive though.by sarchertech
7/18/2026 at 9:13:27 PM
It basically means most of the world's currency wealth is held in the USA or backed by the USA. So the answer would be the finance sector - it's subsidized by the rest of the world.by inigyou
7/19/2026 at 5:38:19 AM
That’s a stretch for the topic at hand. You can say hey the US does this probably morally equivalent thing, but when people are talking about subsidizing domestic companies so they can outcompete foreign companies in foreign markets, this isn’t what they’re talking about.by sarchertech
7/18/2026 at 9:12:39 PM
Agriculture?by inigyou
7/19/2026 at 12:07:47 AM
China spends close to 10x what the US does on agriculture subsidies.by sarchertech
7/18/2026 at 10:53:50 PM
Ever wondered why everything in the USA contains corn syrup? Because sugar is artificially expensive (roughly double the global price) due to import tariffs that protect US sugar cane farmers.by t0mpr1c3
7/18/2026 at 6:18:36 PM
EVs, mobile phones, are two massive industries where Chinese competitors are not only way ahead, but also basically banned.by baby
7/18/2026 at 6:50:15 PM
Successful Chinese industries tend to be subsidized at the level of cities and regions. This creates fierce intra national rivalry that forces rapid evolution and excellence. Electric vehicles are an example.Anything the federal government pumps money into tends not to do as well.
by g8oz
7/19/2026 at 4:34:42 AM
When Uber does it: good. When China does it: bad.by layla5alive
7/19/2026 at 6:00:38 AM
When we do it: it fine. When they do it: it's bad!by oneshtein
7/18/2026 at 10:56:54 PM
It's not much more of a free market when giant corporations do.by nicbou
7/18/2026 at 9:49:02 PM
Every country including the US does that.by tchalla
7/18/2026 at 8:38:26 PM
Does it matter? When has capitalism cared about fair or freeby fireflash38
7/18/2026 at 10:20:08 PM
Or when one country can print endless money while threatening the rest of the world with all kinds of punishment if they stop using it as a reserve currency.Stop crying already. US subsidizes a boatload of things.
by FpUser
7/18/2026 at 7:01:42 PM
Perhaps a huge tell about national strategy is the fact that the owner has $10s of millions to loan to the company? US economic structure in post WWII era has increasingly focused on return on capital (and value extraction). How can that compete in long term with an economy which prioritizes reinvestment *in industry*?by ckemere
7/18/2026 at 7:08:55 PM
One would presume that the founder is investing their money into something, probably equities, that is an investment in industry. They could be either selling those equities for a loan here or taking a loan against those equities to loan to GoPro (if the cost of capital is lower for them than GoPro, which seems plausible.)I generally agree with your point about value extraction vs. re-investment.
by tyre
7/18/2026 at 9:15:31 PM
Equities aren't investment in industry except when there's an IPO or SPO. The rest of the time, it's zero-sum.by inigyou
7/18/2026 at 11:05:34 PM
What you just said makes no sense. How can equities come into existence except via an IPO or similar mechanism?Equities are literally investments in business. Equity is a line in the balance sheet for every corporation.
by t0mpr1c3
7/19/2026 at 1:50:53 PM
Exactly. How can they come into existence except via an IPO or similar mechanism? At that moment, investment happens. The rest of the time, it does not. The stock market rising does not increase investment in industry. When you buy stocks at a stock exchange, you aren't investing in industryby inigyou
7/19/2026 at 6:29:53 PM
You are saying that "investment" only happens when you provide capital to a corporation.Presumably, under this definition, when you sell stock that is not "disinvestment".
Unless you are selling it back to the company itself. Then it is "disinvestment", because the total amount of capital provided to the corporation has gone down.
That is not what people mean by the term "investment". You need to find a different word, because "investment" has a more general meaning than the concept you are talking about.
by t0mpr1c3
7/18/2026 at 4:04:14 PM
People know it’s happening. What do you expect an average consumer to do about it? Pay more out of pocket due to the potential national security risks?by computerex
7/18/2026 at 6:25:11 PM
You can't pay more to get a better drone than DJI's. You can pay more (although it's difficult) to get a worse drone. Much worse.by bambax
7/19/2026 at 12:57:35 AM
Right, because in an actual free market where DHI was not heavily subsidized, DJI drones would cost MUCH more, and the other drones would be competitive.Same for BYD vs Tesla and every other car. It is easy to win in the "free market" when you give away your product.
Same for Uber and Lyft for many years — subsidized by VCs until they gained massive scale, effectively killed all the other competition, and now the prices have gone up when they have a lock on the market, a large moat, and the VCs want a return. In my area, what was a $30 ride to the airport a few years ago, far cheaper than any airport service, is now $89.
The entire concept of a "free market" is idealized to the point of fiction.
by toss1
7/18/2026 at 8:47:25 PM
Next year you'll have a fair old choice of drones from Ukrainian manufacturers though, when they're no longer needed to defeat Putin.by ErroneousBosh
7/18/2026 at 11:05:29 PM
And remember dear readers, China and Iran openly helps Russia in their invasion of Ukraine. It is like the cold war never ended.China's covert military training of Russian forces last year was personally approved by President Vladimir Putin's defence minister and directly involved at least four Russian and Chinese generals, according to two European officials and documents seen by Reuters.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-ap...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_for_Russia_in_the_Russ...
One of EUs biggest trading partners wants Ukraine to lose to Russia...
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/ch...
Iran helps with Shaeed Drones as known
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136#Geran-2
With Chinese parts btw.
North Korea is in too with 10k troops at least and massive ammo. Traded for food and wheat from Ukraine.
by Scroll_Swe
7/19/2026 at 10:37:43 AM
> Iran helps with Shaeed Drones as knownThis ought to be a useful message for the US, too, whose Russian-owned government didn't want to help provide Ukraine with much in the way of weapons.
The US got an absolute pasting in Hormuz from Iranian drones, and maybe if they'd had some Ukrainian kit they'd have come off a little better.
by ErroneousBosh
7/21/2026 at 6:49:51 PM
This is a funny view to me.USA has complete air superiority over Iran. But when they bomb people like you complain.
by Scroll_Swe
7/18/2026 at 9:12:54 PM
I like that thoughtby shmeeed
7/18/2026 at 6:24:55 PM
In today's environment people can't even make the choice to pay more. The productn are just priced out of reach!by sylos
7/19/2026 at 1:07:24 AM
I would pay more to have a product the US doesn’t have its hands in.by Gigachad
7/18/2026 at 3:49:03 PM
Simon Wardley has been shouting this from the rooftops, including detailed per industry timelines when China will take over, in 2015.by tomaskafka
7/18/2026 at 5:11:55 PM
[flagged]by jaapz
7/19/2026 at 7:36:12 AM
> muh illegal aliens and muh christianity and muh identity politicsPlease don't post lame tropes like this on HN. The guidelines make it clear we're trying for something better here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
by tomhow
7/18/2026 at 6:18:46 PM
Also on Avinox motors on e-mtn bikes. Originally made by DJI, then spun off into their own company, and they are starting to eat the competition on all e-mtn bikes at this point. Bosch, TQ, Shimano, et al just can't compete, especially because Avinox is iterating at startup pace and all the rest are iterating at bike pace (slowly).by vitaflo
7/18/2026 at 9:11:53 PM
This is the key though: it’s not just supposed subsidies, because the Chinese companies are fundamentally just faster and more efficientby bob778
7/18/2026 at 10:13:59 PM
I would argue the real answer is world class supply chain for high tech manufacturing. And that supply chain is heavily subsidised.by throwaway2037
7/19/2026 at 6:41:36 AM
Not just subsidised, but the supply chain is literally in the same block.That's the thing Chinese do where other countries can't compete. If you're making product X, all of your suppliers are within walking distance around your assembly line.
In Europe they might be 4 countries over.
by theshrike79
7/19/2026 at 9:53:21 AM
This is written like an American who is both ignorant of cybersecurity, American politics, and of the advantages that the US has benefitted from since at least WW2.The core points are:
- we can't trust a connected GoPro device any more than a connected DJI device
- Just because a device is developed in China doesn't make it a vulnerability.
- Just because a device is made in the US doesn't make it resistant to vulnerabilities.
- US politicians don't have any incentive to tell us the truth. Because of the nature of national security, they could completely lie about any accusations of Chinese involvement and we would never know, especially now that the US president fired anyone who resists his demands for fealty.
- GoPro was first to market but stopped adding value once they IPOed. US public companies depending on IP protections / rent seeking rather than cutthroat competition is the core reason DJI is beating GoPro, not Chinese government subsidies to the sector.
- China's middle and upper classes are far larger than the US's. Similarly, they are training more college grads. China also has more companies being created and more creative destruction than the US. It doesn't matter if we build a better v1.0 product because their innovation engine is moving at least as fast as ours.
- the US has had a 70 year head start on "a near zero cost of capital". Being the west's financier after WW2 and later the world's reserve currency.
by thephyber
7/19/2026 at 10:49:54 AM
His point wasn't that chinese-made products have more vulnerabilities, what? what are these reading skills. GoPro has probably never been in a patent litigation in their favor. His point wasn't limited to GoPro either.The main driving force isn't anything but the simple fact that they can undercut everyone. Some of it is innovation in production methods, some of it subsidies, some of it is the low salaries, some of it is the 12hour shifts seen as normal.
Is it deserved? Sure. They let western companies unintentionally ship their entire know-how to China. Is it OK from a US perspective, does it mean that they can't do anything now, and should just source Chinese products for everything? Hell no.
Thanks for making HN as braindead as Reddit! Thanks to people like you, I'm becoming a master at translating Chinese socials!
by belowavgiq
7/18/2026 at 7:15:15 PM
> GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.What would the attack vector be? I’m not saying there isn’t any, I don’t know much about aerospace and this sounds interesting.
by thih9
7/18/2026 at 8:13:00 PM
Cameras need to connect somewhere, somehow to offload their videos/photos. Whether that's network, USB, SD card, those are all attack vectors. Hell, even the files themselves can act as payloads.by snapetom
7/18/2026 at 10:47:55 PM
they don't do that while flying though.by froh
7/18/2026 at 7:40:01 PM
> What would the attack vector be?The cameras. But quite how, I don’t know.
by lostlogin
7/19/2026 at 11:26:27 PM
My Insta360s have wifi builtin, you have to connect to it with their phone app to do some of the processing. It's kind of nice, especially away from home but I wouldn't know how you'd know if it connected to something else or something else connected to it.I don't know how you'd get devices like that certified for certain higher security applications.
by TheCondor
7/19/2026 at 1:48:17 AM
Any backdoored camera with wireless networking can take pictures remotely.by kevin_thibedeau
7/19/2026 at 2:13:11 PM
Cloud risks are very true - for both GoPro and DJI.About a year ago, I was looking for an action camera. I found a good DJI product, but then I learned that you have to link the camera to an app in order to use it. I am fundamentally opposed to that idea, so I looked up the equivalent GoPro camera. Turns out GoPro also requires you to activate the camera with a smartphone app.
I don't want to send my data to a company for something as trivial as an action cam. I was surprised to find that the US model had such an evil requirement, mirroring the Chinese model.
In the end, I bought the DJI action cam (cheaper, better) and activated it in a public location using a burner phone. You only need to use the app once to free the device and take it offline, after which you can delete the surveillance app. I have found no fingerprinting in the created media yet.
GoPro would have made an easy sale with me, if they had been more privacy/power aware.
by fwn
7/18/2026 at 4:45:12 PM
As someone with both an Insta360 camera and a Bambu printer, I feel it, would love to buy GoPro and Prusa, but the value just isn't there.For one, I had a GoPro whose sensor broke after about 20 minutes of recorded. I ended up getting 3 different replacements, all of which also broke. In the end I just forgot about it when my home burnt down in a wildfire. I got an Insta360 with better picture quality that's also been more reliable for a similar cost.
And I would have loved to buy a Prusa printer but I got a Bambu P1S combo for $600, an equivalent Prusa plus the $300 shipping to Canada would have been ~$2500 CAD. For making trinkets for my 3 year old son plus the few random other things I'd make it's not worth it to pay 4x the money.
Maybe it'll forever be this way due to the differences in cost of living but I do feel as though there's a million barriers to entry to building a business in North America, at least a business that's not fully online.
by dismalaf
7/18/2026 at 5:56:35 PM
Unless Canadian prices are much much higher than US, the only Prusa that costs that much is a Core One L or a Prusa XL.Neither one of those are equivalent to a P1S. They’re 2 tiers above it. Equivalent Bambu printers sell for about the same price.
I have printers from both companies. There are tradeoffs for each, but Prusa isn’t 4x more for an equivalent printer.
by sarchertech
7/18/2026 at 7:49:11 PM
Core One+ is $1899 CAD, the MMU3 for the Core One+ is $579 CAD and shipping was quoted over $300 since they ship from Europe and not the US to Canada. Just put these into their shopping cart on their site, right now quoting $2887 (including shipping and duties).I did get a particularly good deal on the P1S combo apparently, the price on their website already higher than what I paid and it's significantly less in Canada than the US with exchange rate. Are they exactly equivalent, dunno, but both are the cheapest Core XY models with enclosure + colour changer that either sell.
Prusa is also cheaper in the US and EU than Canada.
by dismalaf
7/19/2026 at 1:57:43 PM
FWIW you can get a kit Core One+ for $999 USD in the US. I actually prefer to get the machine as a kit as assembly helps with understanding the workings of the machine for maintenance.by Robotbeat
7/19/2026 at 12:52:42 AM
They’re not remotely equivalent though. That’s like saying that a raspberry pi and 16” monitor are equivalent to a MacBook Pro because that’s the cheapest 16” monitor Apple sells.by sarchertech
7/19/2026 at 1:04:06 AM
Okay so explain the difference to a normal consumer because I'm printing toys for my kid...Both are enclosed and both do 4 colors in a variety of materials. Both are the cheapest version of that that each company offers.
IMO it's more like comparing a Honda to a Mercedes. I'm sure the Mercedes is better but a Honda gets you places all the same.
by dismalaf
7/19/2026 at 4:57:46 AM
It’s more like comparing a Honda to an F-350.If all you want to do is drive the kids to school, you want the Honda, but that doesn’t make the 2 products equivalent.
But if all you’re doing is printing toys for the kids an A1 mini would have been less than half the price of the P1S. The enclosure is mostly a waste if you’re only printing PLA. You’re going to end up venting anyway. Core XY is a little faster than a bedslinger, but if you’re doing a lot of multi color prints, the material change time will dominate, so you won’t see much practical difference.
> both do a variety of materials.
The p1s does not regulate the chamber temperature, so the variety of materials you can get good results either is much more limited.
by sarchertech
7/19/2026 at 2:29:18 AM
For us living in "the rest of the world", we only have a choice of being spied on by chinese or american companies, and american ones can do a lot more damage to us than chinese.So if we're getting spied on anyway, why not buy a better product?
by ajsnigrutin
7/21/2026 at 4:29:27 PM
So long as you don’t live in India, Taiwan, Australia, Japan, South Korea… or maybe even the countries Russia their ally is antagonistic with, like Ukraine, Turkey, all of Europe.by Robotbeat
7/18/2026 at 4:43:53 PM
> the only good non-Chinese printer that doesn’t cost 10-100x as much is PrusaThey hardly have time to compete, busy as they are with foot-shooting practice.
by xorcist
7/18/2026 at 5:10:24 PM
Not sure what you mean. Had a mk 4 or what the last one was - excellent. Now on core one (or what the name is for the enclosed one), also great.by muro
7/18/2026 at 4:50:44 PM
Dunno, Prusa seems to have mostly forgotten about consumers as their industrial business is booming.Stuff like this: https://sensofusion.com/dronefactory/
by dismalaf
7/18/2026 at 7:09:28 PM
This is of course beyond stupid considering the pace of 3d printer vs one PET bottle blow molding machine that can produce same shape shells at thousand units /hour.by rasz
7/18/2026 at 9:16:15 PM
They're completely different niches. Blow molding helps you make a million of a thing, 3D printing helps you make a million different things. There's great for low volume items without significant strength requirements. That includes prototypes but also anything niche - like parts for blow molding machines.by inigyou
7/18/2026 at 9:44:14 PM
Another comment mentioned you can CNC a blow mold. That's completely true and I'm not versed in it enough to know when you'd prefer subtractive or additive rapid prototyping. A 3D printer is a bit more flexible in the shapes it can make but it can only make them out of plastic, which is a huge tradeoff.by inigyou
7/19/2026 at 8:40:38 AM
But blow moulding machines big enough to make a drone shell are massive.If you had suggested a more portable technology like vacuum forming maybe you would have a point, but blow moulding is definitely one of the more expensive and least portable ways of forming plastic.
by imtringued
7/19/2026 at 4:44:46 PM
Massive is subjective, you can fit 10 packed or 5 set-up and running machines in one container https://cntaiso.en.made-in-china.com/product/iXYEPnyvhsUl/Ch...by rasz
7/18/2026 at 8:41:03 PM
Is it? With a 3d printer you can print any piece on demand, change design without changing tooling and make pieces that are semi-hollow inside for lightness.Edit - should add, early in the war Ukraine was crowd-sourcing drone parts from citizens with 3D printers at home. This likely grew from that.
by dismalaf
7/18/2026 at 9:10:55 PM
This isnt endurance contest, interceptor drones are half battery half explosive with miniscule weight taken by motors electronics and packaging. We are talking 10KW power draw for around a minute.You can rapid manufacture moulds too, cnc alu is good for 1K shots easily.
by rasz
7/18/2026 at 5:39:56 PM
100%. It would strongly behoove the US to encourage domestic 3d printer manufacture (or friendly countries like Japan), to the point of bannning Bambu and Chinese companies. Obviously we are doing fine for industrial 3d printers, but the small scale consumer stuff is very important too.If and when AI commiditizes professional services, it would be good to have modern industry to fall back on. With 3d printing the gap isnt insurmountable yet.
However, our country is run by lawyers, not engineers, so I dont have too much hope. At least a lot of our billionaires started out as engineers...
by a34729t
7/18/2026 at 11:18:39 PM
The cost of your proposed policies to consumers, to the Americans who can create because of cheap great Chinese printers and wouldn't be able to create under your policy... is much greater than the abstract industrial policy benefit.by Hammershaft
7/18/2026 at 10:03:39 PM
> GoPros are used all over in aerospace
by throwaway2037
7/19/2026 at 8:07:50 AM
> If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the placeOh right, because the US has never done that ? Its public knowledge the US does supply-chain interdiction, see the infamous NSA “upgrade” factories as just one example.
The US is also just as capable of writing buggy code full of security holes as everyone else. Even more so today with the advent of "vibe code it and ship it".
It is only an attack vector if you allow it to be so, defence in depth and all that ...
> I guess for people who don’t have any experience working on federal government adjacent aerospace stuff, the idea of natsec considerations for IT hardware seems entirely abstract
But its all magically ok if its got a "designed in the USA" and/or "made in the USA" badge on it ?
The problem I see here is a desire to use COTS stuff out-of-the-box in natsec environments led by a desire to save money and/or save time. Seems to me like one of those "pick two" moments where the "security" option was thrown in the trash.
by traceroute66
7/18/2026 at 6:53:46 PM
I'm not sure what stops some of these industries from essentially being more nationalist like China, but more centrist as a company like Palantir. If these risks are as big as you claim, a centralized authority should reverse engineer the things that work done in China or where-ever and use open source/build a better software stack that supplants what's out on the market currently.by darksim905
7/18/2026 at 7:55:29 PM
I think the engineering is actually pretty irrelevant in terms of the competitivenessby nonethewiser
7/19/2026 at 5:21:06 AM
GoPro has been “in trouble” for years and years. All of that may be true but they just haven’t justified their survival. They may well be better off selling to Garmin or another domestic air defense vendor and be done in the consumer market.FWIW current administration wants to play this same game, but they def won’t do it as well.
by browningstreet
7/19/2026 at 5:18:05 AM
Sounds like a problem for America. And totally irrelevant to the state of GoPro the company. It sounds like you're advocating for corporate welfare on the basis that a failing company is "based in" USA, even though their most impactful operations are overseas.by mvdtnz
7/19/2026 at 7:10:17 AM
>People think this doesn’t matter, but GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.I'm actually surprised to hear that GoPro is used in aerospace applications. I assumed that they would use cameras from companies like Teledyne that have a more industrial/military customer base. That is to say, there are almost certainly options for domestic camera manufacturers if required.
You are right about China. The West (especially Apple) taught China how to manufacture while losing the ability ourselves and for some reason didn't consider that they would figure out how to design products themselves and bring the entire product chain within the country.
Individuals at the end of the day mostly care about buying the cheapest thing that does the job. They don't consider where it comes from. Even those that do care have limits in how they will compromise (there is a reason why I bought Bambu Labs 3D printer even though I would have preferred a Prusa).
by starky
7/19/2026 at 5:17:55 PM
I'm not sure what attack vectors are there if you don't connect your camera to company wifi, I guess it could technically put a payload on SD card but... eh ?> When China wants to deindustrialize non-Chinese industries for strategic and/or natsec reasons, they are incredibly good at it. (And note it’s not US-only, China targets basically ANY brand that isn’t Chinese. China absolutely does this to Europe as well… and you can see them doing it in real-time with automotive.)
First, Gopros are made and assembled in China (with I think some in Mexico now to avoid tariffs). And absolutely nothing stops them from just sending potentially malicious firmware to the non-china made ones too
Second China didn't make Gopros fucking overheat, shoddy engineering did. They rested on their laurels while competition worked hard on making better product. If it was just production costs the top end GoPros would be the best in the niche, just more expensive, but no they are both more expensive and worse product.
Third, it is not "Chinese govt. doing it" (tho they are certainly helping), it is west constantly sending their tech advantage away just to get some cheap production there. Whether directly like Apple or Tesla, or indirectly, by allowing chinese capital to buy western car companies and instantly get all the tech then just apply their more integrated production to make same stuff cheaper.
West gave China their advantage willingly, for a short term profits, and continue to do so, then try to mask it as some kind of malicious push (not saying it isn't happening, just saying the western companies are complicit in it) rather than corporate greed ruining everything yet again.
by PunchyHamster
7/18/2026 at 7:17:54 PM
The western countries deindustrialized themselves though. That's just capitalism chasing ever increasing profits and moving production to where it's cheaper, i.e.from west to China. In fact this was cherished because it increased share holder profits.by samiv
7/18/2026 at 8:45:47 PM
If GoPro is manufactured in China then it’s no more secure than Insta360.by msie
7/18/2026 at 5:50:08 PM
If you’ve spent a life and the market being supreme then it’s a shock. China’s economic system is wiping the floor with the west.The U.K. has just nationalised a steel plant which had been bought by China to stop it from being destroyed, and of course the economic right wing hate this as steel is far cheaper to import.
by hdgvhicv
7/18/2026 at 7:50:51 PM
Britain is on a hell of a trajectory. First Brexit then the rise of Reform.If that scam of a man wins the next election, it’ll be quite the show.
by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 9:17:49 PM
It's basically the same past trajectory of Germany, no? Many countries are on it right now.by inigyou
7/18/2026 at 9:43:20 PM
Bailing out the EU was a big hit to the economy and not many countries have taken hits like that.There are estimates as high as 10% of GDP, though 6-8% seem more agreed upon.
by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 10:06:25 PM
Reform reached 31% in the polls and have slipped to 26%. there’s a (slim) chance Farage will be beaten by a comedian in a bin.Trump reached 55% and became president. Twice.
Pot. Kettle.
by hdgvhicv
7/18/2026 at 11:14:24 PM
You're not wrong.But unlike the USA, at least Britons realized Brexit was a mistake. And that Johnson was corrupt and a liar.
I am a citizen of both the UK and USA.
It is astonishing to me that Trump could be voted back in after attempting a coup.
by t0mpr1c3
7/19/2026 at 2:16:44 AM
> China wants to deindustrialize non-Chinese industries for strategic and/or natsec reasons,No. Not even close
China wants its place at the table.
With Erope and USA
People seem to think a developed China is a threat. But they are not staying in rural poverty for ever for our sake. That is not a threat.
They are not trying to "deindustrialise" anybody, just finding a place amongst equals
by worik
7/19/2026 at 1:12:43 AM
Lol your country and your capitalism helped build China.Wasn't that the thing like ~30 years ago? All the western companies pushing manufacturing into China for increased profit?
Capitalism and the west gave all that power away :), you deindustrialised yourselves.
by foxes
7/18/2026 at 4:51:10 PM
boo hoo china bad, buy my more expensive and shitty american productby TheArcane
7/18/2026 at 9:36:00 PM
The biggest attack vector against the world is is Israel and Zionism, not China. Stop bashing China. Its getting silly and infantile.by RiggedEconomy
7/19/2026 at 8:39:55 AM
You have a point here. China vs USA is just a part of the whole thing.If we discuss the problem of China doing industrial spying and applying subsides to destroy non-chinese companies, we should mention also that countries like Israel had been stealing tirelessly for decades every US army and US industrial secrets that they could grab. They had been caught later selling this secrets for money to third countries like Russia. And the cherry on top is that all was subsidized, but with US money this time.
Denying North Korean or Chinese people access to places with industrial secrets, while at the same time granting Israeli people free VIP access just because... "white people" (so they can sell it to Russia, and Russians can sell it later to China and NK) does not really make any sense.
by pvaldes
7/18/2026 at 8:25:06 PM
>People think this doesn’t matter, but GoPros are used all over in aerospace. If we replaced the brand with Insta360, that puts a big attack vector all over the place.In what way exactly? The camera will magically communicate to the mothership?
by coldtea
7/18/2026 at 5:46:10 PM
China does not want to deindustrialize any country. Why do you think of everything in terms of war and domination ? China has built a industry capable of taking any product and make it better and cheaper. There is no psycho strategy behind it. They will do it till every chinese will live a comfortable life equal to an american. At that point america will be able to compete again.by slim
7/18/2026 at 6:20:34 PM
The CCP has publicly explained that their strategy is indeed to dominate key sectors via gov subsidies, de-industrialize other nations and gain strategic leverage in the process.by lokar
7/18/2026 at 9:18:38 PM
Why doesn't America do that too? It seems to work really really well.by inigyou
7/18/2026 at 9:22:17 PM
Two main reasons. It requires taking a lot of freedom / agency away from individuals, and redirecting much of the profits of successful enterprises to subsidies (and suppressing individual consumption and standard of living).by lokar
7/18/2026 at 9:43:01 PM
[flagged]by inigyou
7/18/2026 at 10:07:41 PM
Median PPP adjusted income and disposable income tells a very different story.by lokar
7/19/2026 at 10:51:55 AM
Those don't measure standard of livingby inigyou
7/19/2026 at 1:36:42 AM
America does that for aerospace & some defense stuff. But the reason not to is that the industrial policy needed to do it like China does has the effect of reduced wages, longer work hours, and lower quality of life.by Robotbeat
7/19/2026 at 3:54:23 PM
The US (and EU/UK) subsidies defense, but imo that’s different. First, it’s more understandable to want domestic arms production. Second, they are not seeking to subsidize to undercut foreign suppliers and drive them out of business.The US is not pushing subsidized F35 fighters all over the world to drive other producers under.
by lokar
7/18/2026 at 7:15:27 PM
government first intervened in British Steel last year to prevent its then-owner, the Chinese company Jingye Group, from shutting it down https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/16/business/britain-national...by rasz
7/18/2026 at 4:00:10 PM
I’ve owned a lot of Gopro cameras, having done video capture for a variety of motorsports, and they just got too expensive for what you get.Sounds very similar to another US company - Garmin. They are still popular, but have been raising prices a lot every generation, because for a long time there was no real competition [1]. At this point, Garmin watches that have mapping support have an introduction price of >600 Euro. Even at that price point, zooming or panning maps is excruciatingly slow (sometimes taking up to 10 seconds to re-render) because they have used the same CPU/MCU for multiple generations while increasing screen resolution. They also haven't really innovated a lot as of recently and are moving some new functionality behind a subscription.
This has opened a large gap for Chinese competition. Now you can get a Coros Nomad that goes head-to-head with models like the Garmin Enduro for 350 Euro. They don't have full feature parity yet, but they are so rapidly adding features that they will at some point. Also, in contrast to Garmin, they seem to be using modern microcontrollers, so panning or zooming a map is insanely fast in comparison, while still having ~20 days of battery for daily use.
[1] Of the traditional competitors, Apple Watch Ultra and Galaxy Watch Ultra have gotten closer, but are nowhere near the battery life, robustness, mapping support, mapping + workout support, etc.
by microtonal
7/18/2026 at 4:09:54 PM
> Garmin watches that have mapping support have an introduction price of >600 Euro. Even at that price point, zooming or panning maps is excruciatingly slowI just got a Garmin Instinct 3 Solar. It does mapping, and cost me about $300 US.
You're right that it's slow due to a wimpy processor. But the processor isn't because they're too lazy to innovate, but because they have something sipping tiny amounts of power so that I can get a battery life of several weeks.
by CWuestefeld
7/18/2026 at 7:18:43 PM
I just got a Garmin Instinct 3 Solar. It does mapping, and cost me about $300 US.As a sibling commenter said, the Instinct 3 Solar only does breadcrumb navigation, it doesn't do topographic maps on the watch (there are some Connect IQ apps that can add mapping, but you don't get good integration with workouts).
I use them all the time when cycling. I often plan a route, but when some different direction looks more interesting, I can spot check whether it leads to bike paths that will eventually merge back into my grand plan, erm, route. Or sometimes even for following the route, you want to look ahead by quickly zooming out or get a lot of detail at some complex intersection, where having a full map gives you much better orientation.
Well, except on a Garmin, my Fenix 8 is often so slow that I had to pause cycling to zoom in/out (even more complicated by not being able to do gradual zooming because it does not have a crown).
Yes, I know I can also use a bike GPS or a more generic GPSr with a large screen. I have used their gpsmap line since 2010 or so and even have the gpsmap H1. But having to always carry it around when you have a break somewhere is a drag and I always have a watch on me anyway. So I primarily use the gpsmap for geocaching and switched to using a watch for other activities.
but because they have something sipping tiny amounts of power so that I can get a battery life of several weeks
Coros watches have several weeks of battery life and fast maps. It is laziness (or margin maximization), because they could reach the same power budget by moving to a processor that is on a smaller node.
by microtonal
7/18/2026 at 7:55:15 PM
> I know I can also use a bike GPS or a more generic GPSr with a large screen.Their bike computers have a long lasting battery and are helpful for data. But wow are they frustrating. Software update regularly loses the config, the interface is just so painful (laggy touch screen or confusing buttons). The mapping is hard to follow.
Not that Strava mapping on a phone is any better. Why can’t Strava put arrows on the direction of travel?
by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 4:39:53 PM
I think they meant watches that can show actual maps, not just a line or arrow with your route. That feature has always been reserved for the more expensive watches.by wartijn_
7/18/2026 at 5:44:17 PM
The more expensive watches (Fenix) also have long battery lives: lasting up to a month on a battery that can fit in a watch. The processors still have to sip power.by overfeed
7/18/2026 at 7:24:38 PM
The Coros watches are less than half the price, have 22 days of battery life in smartwatch mode (in the Nomad) and render maps extremely fast. If they added solar, they could probably also last a month (the Coros Apex 4 does 24 days, also without solar).The funniest thing is that earlier versions of the Coros even used the Garmin map format (though as many small files and not a single/small number of .img). Though they have switched to the open PMTiles format in later versions.
BTW, I had a Fenix 7x solar (before a Fenix 8 AMOLED) and it would usually 'only' last about two weeks. I think you can only reach Garmin's stated time if you disable a lot of functionality.
by microtonal
7/18/2026 at 10:03:45 PM
> The Coros watches are less than half the price, have 22 days of battery life in smartwatch modeGarmin gets almost 30% more battery life in exchange of not being as fast (30 days)
> I think you can only reach Garmin's stated time if you disable a lot of functionality.
Turning off always-on Pulse ox gets you there. Turning everything off except telling time gets you 2.5x the battery life (69-71 days)
by overfeed
7/19/2026 at 2:51:13 PM
My Instinct 3 Solar shows 34 days remaining in the battery. I charged it sometime last week, so we're talking about upper 30s at least.That's with running activity tracking including GPS for about an hour a day, and continuous heart rate monitoring.
At least on my device (and my body) the spo2 sensor is very finicky, requiring absolution stillness, and even at that I don't think it's accurate. So I don't use that.
I also discovered recently that simply using a custom watchface - even one built with an eye toward efficiency - lowers my battery life to about 2 weeks. The native faces enjoy privileged operations and are thus highly efficient. But custom-coded stuff apparently runs in a sandbox that has the effect of costing much more power. That's unfortunate, because my custom face used custom high-legibility fonts (derived from what's on interstate signage), making it noticeably easier on my aging eyes. The built-in fonts aren't great for this.
by CWuestefeld
7/19/2026 at 5:55:41 AM
My Fenix 8 only gets two weeks at most with pulse ox off. Yes, it's the AMOLED version, but I have the screen off by default (which should be similar to MIP). I got similar runtimes on my 7 Pro Solar without pulse ox.by microtonal
7/19/2026 at 6:02:12 AM
Err.. my 2yo Fenix 7 Solar definitely lasts 3-4 weeks. Not AMOLED (because.. that's why), but MiP. In summer.. it can last >month. Pulse on, GPS is generally only on in solar. Screen is never off. I can obviously make it a worse UX/last longer, but I'm not sure I see the need.. even when I'm back country.by gnabgib
7/20/2026 at 1:48:31 PM
I wish my 7 Solar had battery times like that. It's possibly because I frequently use mapping on longer bikes.by microtonal
7/21/2026 at 1:31:08 AM
In retrospect, the difference between the batteries on 42mm/47mm/51mm are probably relevant (I'm using the X/51mm). Longer rides is my highest usage :D Next you're in Canada, let's ride (mine's an FSR)by gnabgib
7/19/2026 at 10:43:56 PM
For me coros are non started because of lack of the NFC payments. I'm not even looking beyond that, it's a dealbreaker.It's brilliant coros sticks to MIP though - the moment I cant buy MIP Garmin when I update the watch next time, I don't buy Garmin.
Good watches, Coros, though, I wish them success.
by subscribed
7/18/2026 at 6:04:59 PM
Sounds like the perfect use-case for big-small processors. A power-sipper for routine 99.99% of operations and a more powerful beast for the CPU intensive ops.by dingaling
7/18/2026 at 7:33:10 PM
It's mostly because Garmin wants to maximize profits by sticking to old CPUs. The Coros watches (from what I've heard, the same applies to Suunto and Polar) are fast.This has been an issue across the whole Garmin product line. E.g. the Garmin eTrex 32x from 2019 still used the same CPU as the eTrex 30 from 2011. 8 years without a CPU update. And the eTrex was already had miserably slow map rendering in 2011 with maps from that year.
by microtonal
7/18/2026 at 9:22:07 PM
Although Coros watches are fast, the Coros DURA bike computer is pretty slow when re-rendering maps. Naturally, companies can still choose between how fast the CPU is versus how long the battery life is (100+ hours on the Coros DURA I believe).by kccqzy
7/18/2026 at 7:57:18 PM
> It's mostly because Garmin wants to maximize profitsI see people riding bikes worth tens of thousands regularly. They should try a top tier models and see what happens.
by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 8:39:21 PM
One of the benefits of these old eTrex models is that they run on AA's, so they're used for things like long distance cycling (across countries).I don't know if there are top tier models that run on replaceable batteries you can get at any gas station.
by justinator
7/18/2026 at 8:44:41 PM
They have solar ones, but judging by reviews, they get about 10 minutes extra battery life per hour in the sun.by lostlogin
7/18/2026 at 7:43:32 PM
Yes, this ships in basically every smartwatch since the Snapdragon Wear 3100 launched in 2018.by tadfisher
7/18/2026 at 4:33:25 PM
A modern powerful MCU should be able to do both due to advanced power saving modes. Or youcan even have a power MCU and very low power standby MCU.by m4rtink
7/18/2026 at 5:26:18 PM
This is correct. There are a number of excellent asymmetric multicore MCU platforms now. You don't have to choose between efficiency and performance today.by topspin
7/18/2026 at 5:53:39 PM
How do you like the Instinct 3 Solar? I'm considering one for the exceptional battery life.by edsimpson
7/19/2026 at 1:44:03 AM
Really considering Coros since Garmin introduced a subscription. It doesn't currently prevent me from using anything I want to use, it's just moving in the wrong direction, but I was annoyed by Garmin for a long time, and this is the last drop.However, my understanding is that Coros just doesn't have an SDK. At all. So it's not really "lagging on features", it's a totally closed platform, that doesn't any have 3rd party apps at all, and will not have them, because it's impossible to write them. I don't know if it's enough of a reason to completely write them off as a competitor, but that does give me a pause. I mean, if I don't have a feature on Garmin, I can theoretically implement it myself, or even hope that somebody else did. If I don't have it on Coros, I will just have to make do.
by krick
7/18/2026 at 4:08:07 PM
It’s interesting that you mention Garmin - they’re a good example of pivoting from your original market (standalone gps units for cars) once you see a nimble competitor eating away at it (gps-enabled smartphones). Garmin would be dead if they had held fast on the standalone GPS market.by loloquwowndueo
7/18/2026 at 4:21:43 PM
I'm not sure you are fully aware of the markets that Garmin is in. When it comes to marine, aviation and offroad, you simply cannot run a gps app on a phone. E.g.by radiorental
7/18/2026 at 7:36:38 PM
Yep, also, they had gpsr units way before their gpsunits for cars became popular. They started making GPS receivers in (I think) 1993:by microtonal
7/19/2026 at 5:31:44 AM
"offroad, you simply cannot run a gps app on a phone"I almost exclusively use GaiaGPS as my offroad GPS navigation app on my phone. It works perfectly fine and it has for a long time, roughly speaking 1/7th of my life.
by lightedman
7/22/2026 at 3:07:28 PM
You are correct, I should have been more specific - SxS, MTB and Enduro/Dualsport motorcycling. I've tried to use smart phones but they often heat up running a gps app in direct sunlight. More importantly the touch response accuracy caused me to double check the phone while trying to pay attention to the trail.In applications such as jeep rock crawling, car camping - yes, smartphones will work. In more extreme activities - nope.
by radiorental
7/18/2026 at 5:12:03 PM
Thanks! I’m clearly not aware.by loloquwowndueo
7/18/2026 at 5:30:35 PM
[dead]by duzer65657
7/18/2026 at 4:17:07 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with Garmin.As a motorcyclist and sailor, their hardware is second to none in terms of build quality and robustness. The ability to look down at my Zumo GPS on my motorcycle in a rain storm on a dirt road and have it respond to my wet dirty glove is a close to magic as you will get.
Then there's the watches, the Instinct range is ok but I have a button that doesn't pop back out, my wife's vivoactive suffered the well known touch failure.
However, as a UXer I will say that across all products the software interaction model sucks balls. "China" can and will produce hardware to meet a price point, its not that they can't build good products.
As soon as "China" figures out how to do good UX, the last moat western companies have will fall.
by radiorental
7/18/2026 at 7:43:43 PM
I think the only sports watch company that has an app that is worse than Garmin's is Polar. I have used Garmin devices since 2010, but their UX is (as you say) pretty quirky. They changed the UI/UX of the gpsmap H1 to look more like a smartphone, but it is still weird. Another issue is that their software has been very buggy the last few years, with software only stabilizing 1-2 years after the release. One the largest external source for Garmin information (gpsrchive) has actively recommended against purchasing the H1 because it has been so buggy. Similarly, earlier firmware releases of the Fenix 8 had a lot of issues. Also a lot of functionality of older units hasn't been implemented yet. These are often not small bugs, but of the type, "oopsie, your device froze or rebooted while you were navigating". They basically released an alpha version as a final product.I don't know about UX, but I've had my Coros watch for a few weeks now and I didn't find it hard to understand. I think it's much easier than when I first learned to use a Fenix watch. It misses some Garmin features though that I'd really like to see like off-course rerouting. But like I said above, they have been adding features at a good pace and a drastically undercutting Garmin on price (most watches less than half the price of the closest Garmin watch).
by microtonal
7/18/2026 at 4:28:14 PM
'China' can do UX just fine, when the incentive is there. Part of the reason UX seems rough, outside of low quality products where it's a tertiary consideration, is cultural differences. User interfaces are part of culture, like everything humans touch. Those preferences shape the resulting tech. Sometimes those choices are less optimal for western users with their own preferences.by idiotsecant
7/19/2026 at 6:56:24 AM
Garmin will survive a year or more easily, because in Europe there is a big group of people who belive in Garmin even more than people belived in Apple (this group is still huge and strong, but the company itself does everything it can to change it).The real competition is Apple Watch and for sport-intensive application Garmin wins because of battery and simplicity of usage in harder conditions.
by misiek08
7/18/2026 at 5:15:29 PM
About 10 years ago I was looking for a rugged small camera. Found some by Garmin that were on a closeout sale. Excellent quality, never owned a GoPro so can't compare but I used them in similar applications and they never had an issue.by SoftTalker
7/19/2026 at 10:13:39 PM
They seem to be a top brand in sailing for now, still. But they did move to a subscription for their Navionics charts.by icar
7/18/2026 at 5:25:04 PM
According to a quick search, GoPro has an Enterprise Valuation of $160M. That would be chump change for a large tech company. The brand has name recognition value in excess of that figure. I suspect some big company will happily buy it but not sure who. It has to be a company that wants to get into the camera market. I don't think the brand name is as valuable to an existing camera company-though I could be wrong.Apple, Google, and Amazon could all make sense. Google would see the business as an opportunity to strengthen its existing IoT portfolio. Apple an opportunity to add to its integrated consumer electronics offering. Amazon would be more a play to improve GoPro's margins. They could easily push it with prime deals, etc.
I could also see Samsung getting in.
Regardless, expect to see more integration, AI features, etc, after acquisition.
by kramer2718
7/19/2026 at 5:25:57 AM
If google would buy GoPro it would close it a couple of years laterby dh2022
7/18/2026 at 2:43:47 PM
> These days other brands give better quality video in better quality hardware and more functionality, for cheaper.I had a GoPro many years ago. Eventually sold it because I needed the money for other things.
Been thinking about buying a new action camera eventually.
Got any recommendations?
The one that interests me the most of the ones I’ve seen is the Insta360 X4 Air plus an underwater case for it.
I want to be able to bring my camera swimming, bicycling, hiking, etc. And I think 360 degree cameras are pretty cool. Hopefully it’s not just a gimmick that loses its appeal after a few hours.
by QuantumNomad_
7/18/2026 at 2:57:42 PM
As someone who watches a reasonable amount of PoV outdoor activity footage shot on helmet cams and the like (base jumping, mountain biking, skiing, snowboarding, etc)… I don’t love watching 360 videos uploaded in the raw because of the perspective distortion.I’m assuming it must be possible, if the resolution is good enough, to post process a portion of each overall frame into an undistorted 1080p (or better) view of the key view of the action, but a lot of people don’t do this (perhaps it’s much more difficult or time-consuming that I’m imagining, or perhaps many viewers enjoy the distorted 360 view more than I do).
Just my two cents, YMMV, etc.
by bartread
7/18/2026 at 5:34:45 PM
part of this is by design, which unfortunately also makes very steep terrain not look as terrifying, but gives you huge FOV. I find in all but the latest Instas its the worse low-light quality that is most notable. More annoying is that everyone is trying to compete on weird angles and perspectives, andY YT shills push attachments and niche features vs. photographic qualityby duzer65657
7/18/2026 at 3:58:54 PM
Yes it's possible, and yes it's time-consuming.by rdiddly
7/18/2026 at 2:53:10 PM
If you're willing to put a little time into video editing, a 360 cam is great. The insta360 tools can make that a little easier if you want something simple.If you just want to store a snapshot of the moment as it was captured, a regular camera that you pointed in the right direction is better.
by LeifCarrotson
7/18/2026 at 3:08:00 PM
The downside is the 360 editing tools are kind of sluggish and not great to work with, and even at 8k res in-camera, the export for a 'normal' looking FoV is pretty low quality compared to a normal action cam recording in 4k.I have an insta360 X5, it's neat and there's a lot of flexibility, but it does have downsides.
The app is also a pile of crap, it's crammed full of ads, social media junk I don't want, it's slow as molasses, and the size of the app is massive.
by Saris
7/18/2026 at 5:28:43 PM
Have you tried resolve's 3d editing?by paradox460
7/18/2026 at 3:28:30 PM
I'd love to film in 3d. But being dependent on a single app of a single company (that is not even a good app right now) is literally the worst feature for a hardware I could imagine.by herbst
7/18/2026 at 4:21:33 PM
Why are you dependent on a single app? Pretty much any NLE has ability to edit 3D footage.by dylan604
7/18/2026 at 6:43:01 PM
I didn't know that. I've got told it's a proprietary format while got shown the insta360 app.Good to know, and reconsider!
by herbst
7/18/2026 at 6:56:10 PM
One cool feature I've read about is that (at least some) GoPro cameras can save high-resolution IMU measurements to the recorded video files, timestamped and interleaved with video frames. This can be useful for mapping applications, e.g. https://joshi-bharat.github.io/projects/gopro/Are there any competitors on the market that also have this feature? I've looked around a few times in the past and haven't found any. Many cameras say that they have an IMU, presumably for image stabilization, but they don't seem to record or expose that data.
by teraflop
7/19/2026 at 10:21:32 AM
Both Insta360 and DJI cameras save IMU / magnetometer data to their video files.by konraditurbe
7/20/2026 at 9:17:57 PM
Thanks!by teraflop
7/18/2026 at 1:52:35 PM
It also doesn’t help that you could probably get by with a hero 4 black even today lolMan I still can’t believe how bad the rollout of the karma was. I remember at the time everyone in my professional circles was buzzing about it. Then they started literally falling out of the sky. Feel like they never recovered
by Forgeties79
7/18/2026 at 7:13:14 PM
Eh, I have a Hero 4 black. And if you as the other commenter only think about resolution it can look like that, but the difference is enormous.4k on a gopro 13 is far far far clearer. And the stabilization is night and day. Half my hero4 videos are mostly blurry shakes and quite jarring to watch, with a bad fov. The stabilization on modern gopros is magical. The bitrate and quality is orders of magnitude better. You can now pull good quality stills from the video if you want. Hero4 can't handle anything but perfect blue sky in the middle of the day. Etc etc
by matsemann
7/18/2026 at 2:52:42 PM
> Then they started literally falling out of the sky.Yep, something must have gone horribly wrong with QA.
by palata
7/18/2026 at 2:41:16 PM
Apparently (checked with AI), Hero 4 Black was the first camera with 30 fps 4k video and was released 12 years ago already (how time flies)Frankly, after 4k/30 and 1080p/60, there are strong diminishing returns, because most people these days watch videos on their phones in suboptimal conditions (or older desktops that may still be on 1080p), so what are they going to do with your 5k/6k video?
Sure, you can keep doing minor improvements to sensors and optics, but for a consumer it will not justify getting a new model for $500.
Also, competing with smartphone cameras which have gotten better over the years. I bet 99% of people would not be able to tell a gopro video from a phone video.
by antisthenes
7/18/2026 at 3:05:39 PM
Transparency on AI use is a sin now, I guess.by kylecazar
7/18/2026 at 9:20:29 PM
Admitting your sins to your competitors has always been a sin.by inigyou
7/18/2026 at 3:22:33 PM
The greatest advantage of greater resolution is that you can cut for a better framing. But who has time to go through good of video for editing?by neves
7/18/2026 at 4:23:47 PM
That larger image size allows for more aggressive image stabilization as well.by dylan604
7/18/2026 at 2:37:11 PM
>other brands give better quality video in better quality hardware and more functionality, for cheaperWould you mind providing a recommendation you have first hand experience with?
by fiatpandas
7/18/2026 at 7:09:53 PM
It's mostly FUD and/or paid reviewers. Both DJI and Insta have good products, but also very good at sponsoring in a way where things get reviewed very in their favor, making people have an impression that doesn't quite match reality. So the meme one constantly read online about how gopros are so much worse is false. They have their issues, but mostly trade offs.by matsemann
7/18/2026 at 2:59:31 PM
> These days other brands give better quality video in better quality hardware and more functionality, for cheaper.Such as?
by gib444
7/18/2026 at 3:11:54 PM
DJI Osmo cameras are good, I still have my original Osmo action and while the quality is a bit behind now, the battery life and general stability and menus are better than GoPro IMO.I've found DJI cameras also don't discharge their batteries when sitting, my gopro 11 black is somehow always dead when I grab it even after a few weeks, but my osmo action is still at ~70% after a year.
Insta360 also has some neat offerings, but their software/app is absolutely abysmal, it's crammed full of ads and takes up several GB of space. It also requires an account login.
by Saris
7/18/2026 at 7:24:50 PM
A gopro isn't worse than the competition, nor at a premium.What makes gopro the standard in proper productions (and science etc) is that they're so hackable with the gopro labs software. With that, all the other cameras are toys in comparison for professional usage.
by matsemann
7/19/2026 at 1:10:49 AM
The bulk of the market is toys for aspiring content creators. Professional usage is pocket change subsidised by tiktokers.by Gigachad
7/19/2026 at 1:31:10 AM
I bought one back in 2018, curious what brand would you recommend today? I wouldnt mind upgrading to something more modern but I dont care about GoPro for brands sake. Would love something I could take in the water like the GoPro.by giancarlostoro
7/19/2026 at 6:39:50 PM
It really didn't help that the HERO 13 changed a bunch of stuff for the worse, like incompatible api and other issues.by gregdaniels421