alt.hn

6/3/2026 at 4:33:08 AM

Americans Are Leaving the U.S. in Record Numbers

 https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/americans-are-leaving-the-us-in-record-numbers/f2ae7db5-db04-4394-84db-7536e5b681ec

by KnuthIsGod

6/3/2026 at 10:12:00 AM

I left over a decade ago, but I actually considered coming back around 2024, so I put some research into it. The result was grim.

- I'm now married to a non-American who is not white. We're not confident in the immigration process, to say the least

- Both of us are self-employed; the quote for decent (not good, I mean aggressively mediocre) insurance was very high

- Housing costs in any city we wanted to live in were very high; YMML on this obviously, but it covers a lot of cities

- Any social ill, irritation, etc that was annoying me around 2010 is unsolved with no signs of progress

- Extreme political polarization (actually a both sides thing)

- The rise of aggressive Christian nationalism (very much a one side thing)

- A horrifying pace of growth in political corruption

Everywhere has its bad points and none of these are necessarily worse than a randomly chosen second country. I think the final deciding factor is just vibes; I feel like America is declining, the culture I was born into is warping, and I don't particularly want to watch it happen from the inside, now that I'm already on the outside.

by telchior

6/3/2026 at 5:50:57 AM

Maybe I'm becoming (or already cynical), but I'm increasingly tired of the genre of posts/reels/TikToks where someone moves to Vietnam, Portugal, Thailand, Mexico, etc. and comes back with profound observations about how "people there really know how to live" and how life is simply better there.

A lot of "I've discovered a better way of life abroad" stories seem to quietly assume continued access to US wages, US assets, US equity compensation, or US retirement savings.

by hellosputnik

6/3/2026 at 11:24:05 AM

I suspect some people moved there years ago with the lower cost of living little money around the time/since of the four-hour workweek tim ferris movement . Some countries do not allow public criticism, so of course they would make videos of wonderful places to live hoping to scratch income-wise by after some moving there with no backup plan. Just a little critical thinking.

I can understand the just indiehacker and mvp/yolo it, but there is real risk there and I'd question the wisdom of that.

by cahoot_bird

6/3/2026 at 6:20:07 AM

regardless if you hate hearing them promoting their experiences or not, it's still true. People want to have fun and live happy not worry about school shooting, healthcare costs, living standards.

I watched a video of a teacher that moved from Canada to China. He explained how much him and his family love it there, after 14 years he moved again to Singapore and loves it there just a little better than China. it is NOT all that unusual to move and have life shared across multiple countries. I think it's natural. We were literally doing that none stop during 1500's , 1400's ,1300's, just imagine the ancient silk-road.We might make it sound and feel like it is the worst thing you can do is move to another country in a form of guilt to betrayal of your residing country, but it's really not.

Stop listening to everything that you hear. Choose what you want your brain to experience. Do what YOU think will bring you joy.

I have lived in three states so far, yes lived not just visited. A relative told me numerous times " to not go, its a bad idea and far away moving to Florida, New York" guess what I should of moved sooner. wasted time and years listening to scared of change people.

by mahirsaid

6/3/2026 at 1:19:56 PM

> I think it's natural. We were literally doing that none stop during 1500's , 1400's ,1300's, just imagine the ancient silk-road.

That's not quite true. Just looking over my families ancestry data. There are outliers, but most died in a couple kilometer radius where they were born. Even more further in the past. At least until the 1650s when it's hard to find data. Before the 30 year war, both documentation gets rarer and poeple apparently didn't have lastnames as they did today. It wasn't neccessary. ...Because they moved so little...

Sure, silk road. But how many people moved along a bigger part of it?

by fivetomidnight

6/3/2026 at 7:30:35 AM

I loved china but eventually had to come back due to mostly air quality and some career issues. I’m back in my favorite American city at least, but having spent 11 years out (2 in Switzerland and 9 in china), I feel anxious (and I came back just in time for Trump 1, ugh).

by seanmcdirmid

6/3/2026 at 11:21:10 AM

Air quality in china has massively improved over last couple of years... Oc not as fast in all cities but might want to update your priors :)) (if that trump 1 is not a typo 8 years is a huge difference)

by Paradigm2020

6/3/2026 at 8:37:26 AM

Again i wish more people did what you did and experience life outside of their norm. Indeed it's not for everyone but the point stands. You made the choice to come back after experiencing something else for a while.

by mahirsaid

6/3/2026 at 6:45:38 AM

The US wages are desirable only for buying the things that have about the same price everywhere (because they are imported from the same Asian countries, with prices passing through US dollars), i.e. mostly electronics and computing devices.

Other products and services, like food, clothes, a home, healthcare, education, or even cars, you can get better than in USA for lower prices, so that the budget for them can be even a lower fraction of a typical local wage, than it is in USA as a fraction of a US wage.

Depending on personal needs and preferences, either USA or another country may be the better choice, but the value of a US wage has a much lower weight in a correct decision than you assume, because a wage must be compared with the expenses. Its absolute value tells very little, because the US dollar appears to be greatly overvalued in comparison with other currencies (which is a consequence of its role in international commerce).

by adrian_b

6/3/2026 at 10:11:56 AM

> A lot of "I've discovered a better way of life abroad" stories seem to quietly assume continued access to US wages, US assets, US equity compensation, or US retirement savings.

What’s the issue with that? You obviously have lower income in the rest of the world, the US is literally the wealthiest country. If you can benefit from US income and live in places that suits you better it’s clearly a pretty good situation.

If you instead get a local wage you will still be in a good position, people leaving the US are generally with college education and high income. Maybe less wealthy but that’s ok, you don’t have to literally have the highest income in the world to be good.

by dgellow

6/3/2026 at 11:06:11 AM

I believe GP’s point was that folks conflate being in the upper wealth class of a region with that region being inherently better for the locals.

by mathgeek

6/3/2026 at 12:17:35 PM

I remember in 2012 or so I did a baseline comparison of a typical Starbucks employee in Montana versus a Silicon Valley software engineer and the cruel reality was that even thought he software engineer was making a lot more in their salary they were wildly more poor than the Starbucks employee.

at the time ( this has changed ) the Starbucks employee could own a home and put into that equity. so lower cost of living and ability to save towards equity massively overwhelmed any perceived value of a 'high salary'. Throw in the cost of living in the Bay Area and the reality was the software engineers were barely subsisting while the barista was actually building a life for themselves.

essentially. even inside the continental US.... the cost of living and cost of equity, tax structures, etc all matter a great deal. That doesn't change leaving the US. In fact it largely just gets more complicated.

but you can ABSOLUTELY make a whole lot less in a region where you will live better and make more money Long term.

by porknbeans00

6/3/2026 at 10:44:01 AM

US equity assets are generally available to most. Where I earned my savings is also irrelevant.

by xocnad

6/3/2026 at 9:04:53 AM

[flagged]

by porknbeans00

6/3/2026 at 6:06:02 AM

Did you read the article?

by throwaway67678

6/3/2026 at 6:51:24 AM

Did you? That's exactly what they are discussing except Spain and Portugal. One of the profiles still works remote at a major US software firm.

by dilyevsky

6/3/2026 at 6:12:41 AM

Europe gets romanticized way too much. Healthcare often means months of waiting and very hit-or-miss doctors. Bureaucracy is worse, salaries are lower, and there are plenty of stupid laws and corruption too.

It is probably better if you value slower life, more vacation, and working less. But it is not some obvious upgrade over the U.S. Just a different set of problems.

(I'm hungarian)

by meszmate

6/3/2026 at 7:20:56 AM

To add some nuances, as someone living in Germany, it’s correct you might have to wait months for a medical appointment, but not for emergencies. Psychiatrists, psychotherapists are generally overbooked and you likely have to wait 3-6 months (sometimes more), which isn’t great if you are in a bad place. However if we are talking about breaking something, you can get everything happening quickly and efficiently.

Personal anecdotes:

I had to wait 6+ months to get an actual diagnostic when I had a pretty bad depressive episode. Everybody around me shares that same experience. The eventual diagnostic (adhd with high anxiety) didn’t cost me anything. And I pay 15€ every 3 months or so for my meds.

When I got a lumbar disc herniation that required urgent medical intervention I got brought to a hospital immediately, got MRI scans, multiple days in hospital with an assigned physiotherapist, bunch of prescribed medication. Everything was done extremely way quickly. The whole thing, including the ambulance, drugs they injected to be able to move me, scans, hospital bed, crutches, and medication cost me around 40€. And something like 30€ for the month of physiotherapy that followed.

I have a high incomes and am self-employed so pay a bit more than 900€ a month for the public health insurance, which is the maximum here (the fact we have a cap instead of a pure percentage of income doesn’t make any sense to me, I should be paying way more). Insurances manage everything automatically.

Agreed that German doctors are really hit or miss, though that has been the case everywhere I lived

by dgellow

6/3/2026 at 9:44:34 AM

What German health care providers don’t tell you is that you have the legal right to get faster psychological assistance, and they have to cover the costs of a private therapist if you can show that there is no availability in your area. They try to make the process as ugly as possible, and I understand that typically you will not have the capacity to deal with that in times of need, but with some more awareness around this topic maybe you can find a friend or a social worker to assist you with that. See eg https://www.kassenwatch.de/ In all major cities, there are dozens of nonprofits that quickly will help you for free; it’s more that those in need most times don’t feel comfortable asking for that kind of help.

Personally, my life improved considerably when I decided I’ve had enough of it, and that spending around 100€/h on my mental health, plus attending group therapy which you can find for as low as 20€ for a full weekend (for example IoPT), was the best quality decision of my life. I understand not all of society is in a position to spend that kind of money, but think and be honest on your own spending and valuation. I know people that easily spend that amount on drugs or booze or hobby activities that don’t really address their mental health issues. If I hear you complaining about not finding a therapist but I see you driving a 50k€ car, or spending 2k€ on “vacation”, that’s on you.

Yes, public health insurance could be better than it is, but it’s not without alternative. The private therapists I work with have zero waiting time, and anyone can get an appointment within a week or two with them. You can spend a long time complaining and waiting, or you can invest in yourself.

It can feel life threatening to go to a therapist. And I get how people are not ready to admit to others that they’re fucking scared, and ashamed. But they should at least admit to themselves that that is the real reason, not the waiting times. The people I know that actually finally found the courage to take the step suddenly discovered that for some reason they actually didn’t have to wait very long. The federal 116117 assistance line used to be pretty bad but it has improved considerably in the past decade. Same for the local mental health crisis lines (“Krisendienst”).

by 47282847

6/3/2026 at 2:51:37 PM

> legal

> don’t tell you

As a Wikipedian who has edited primarily on US legal systems but also Germany's ... I seriously doubt more than a handful of non-attorneys have any clue about the actual workings of the German legal systems.

The biggest issue is of course the lack of codified laws and regulations. (Note that collections like the Gesetze im Internet are more like US Statute Compilations. If you don't know what the Statute Compilations are and have never heard anyone mention them, case in point.) The Swiss SR is odd man out of course, even though it's unofficial it's still usable. US states and states like Germany do however follow similar court reporting practices, e.g. court case decisions are only selectively published, so we have similarly little insight into how laws are actually implemented in practice. (The US federal government is better, but its impact on everyday people is incomparable.)

by esbranson

6/3/2026 at 12:21:41 PM

Thanks, that's great info to share. I remember trying 116117 and reaching out to a bunch of places and not having any luck with it in my region, but it was just after Covid, anything assistance related was overwhelmed at that time

by dgellow

6/3/2026 at 10:43:44 AM

[dead]

by cindyllm

6/3/2026 at 6:36:16 AM

My experience in Europe is that healthcare is expensive but efficient, bureaucracy is fine and salaries are very high. Guess which country I live in.

Point is "Europe" is way too diverse to generalize like that.

by ahtihn

6/3/2026 at 7:07:59 AM

this feels like it would be true only in scandinavian country, switzerland or luxembourg

by caldarons

6/3/2026 at 6:41:46 AM

Switzerland or Luxembourg.

by dilyevsky

6/3/2026 at 6:40:28 AM

Switzerland?

by maltemalte

6/3/2026 at 6:46:10 AM

> It is probably better if you value slower life, more vacation, and working less.

That's exactly it, right? Self-sorting among those suitably positioned to emigrate and who have tastes more aligned with European norms?

That sounds more like pragmatism than romantacism.

by swatcoder

6/3/2026 at 6:46:08 AM

I moved in 2024 (to NL) and i’ve never had better experiences with doctors or dentists. Extremely quick and simple, and insurance billing is a breeze.

by hhh

6/3/2026 at 6:35:50 AM

I would take healthcare I have to wait a bit for over healthcare that could cripple me financially thanks.

by TheCleric

6/3/2026 at 6:47:20 AM

Last time I used healthcare in mainland Europe (Austria) a suspected broken finger it was 25 minutes from waking in to having the scan and the splint and being on my way. This was free with a GHic.

In the U.K. I had a problem and phoned my gp, went in 2 hours later, 10 minutes, walked out with a prescription.

In the US I had the same problem, spent 2 hours, had my blood pressure taken 4 times, and eventually had the same prescription. That’s cost me $2,000.

Now for chronic stuff perhaps it’s different. My mother told Her gp whe hd a problem with her shoulder and Gp said she didn’t need a CT scan, so she paid $300 for one privately which was booked in for a few days later. The results said there was nothing wrong. Maybe in the US it’s different and cheaper?

by hdgvhicv

6/3/2026 at 7:44:21 AM

Good news, in the US you don't need to choose... and by need, I mean you probably get both.

by schreiaj

6/3/2026 at 8:28:37 AM

I imagine a lot of people are happy to just have access to medical care that doesn’t bankrupt them to be honest. Especially if they have children with medical conditions, or chronic conditions of their own etc.

by dwroberts

6/3/2026 at 6:20:36 AM

Are you making a judgement on the entire European continent as a whole from your experience in Hungary or have you actually lived in a few countries across Europe to come to this conclusion?

by waterTanuki

6/3/2026 at 6:37:53 AM

Still better than the US system.

by bitwize

6/3/2026 at 3:27:27 PM

Bingo. "months of waiting and very hit-or-miss doctors" is my average experience in the US. The financial aspect is a lightning rod because the setup is so patently absurd (fake prices and nobody knows anything until afterwards!), it's easily documented (phone pic of a fraudulent bill), there's more bandwidth to post online when you're merely dealing with the billing hell, and of course in the true American spirit there are a bunch of entrenched interests looking to make a lot of money from taking the abstract desire for change and using it to push concrete policies that enrich themselves. But the actual care being provided is its own hell well before. The individual workers in the system do snap to attention when things get real, but those times are basically the exceptions that prove the rule.

by mindslight

6/3/2026 at 4:36:36 AM

Well I am not surprised, Look at who you have running the country. I have no interest In going to to visit ever again and I love the US but not with him or any of his cronies in charge.

by VeilusDigital

6/3/2026 at 10:45:05 AM

That is a problem for the counties they flock too.

Portuguese might not mind tourists that spend money in the country, but I know they do not like rich foreigners living there, driving up prices for housing and everything else.

People should consider migrating to other countries than Italy, Spain and Portugal:

Poland, Hungary and Romania are great places to live.

South Germany and Austria are also great and a bit easier to get by when only using English or consider Croatia if you are up for a bit more adventure.

by niemandhier

6/3/2026 at 11:14:44 AM

Fantastic article.

I laughed at the couple who listed their reasons for leaving: healthcare costs, university costs, housing costs, school shootings threatening their kids, having to work so much they never saw their kids, having to own multiple cars, etc etc and then they say "But we aren't rejecting the American system" after listing all the parts of the american system they rejected.

by Schlagbohrer

6/3/2026 at 6:09:17 AM

Soon there will be restrictions on this. If the data ever gets presented and catches public opinion then i suspect the restrictions will start coming and salary caps based on expat workers will start to deter them from leaving. Quite the contradiction if you want people to stay. We all know this is the attitude of the admin ATM.

by mahirsaid

6/3/2026 at 11:25:50 AM

The trump admin changes to passports for transgender people have already caused problems for transgender americans who either want to travel or are already abroad.

by Schlagbohrer

6/3/2026 at 9:31:41 AM

Lots of americans and others, show up here in Nova Scotia (and other places) and try and settle down, many are what I call "lifestyle refugees", and are often well off but traumatised by something or the other, but as the merry pranksters say, "wherever you go, there you are", then there are the "helpers" who are bringing some sort of idea that nobody is unaware of, another category is the wealthy , self centered, city type moving to a rural area and inevitibly trying to claim a shared right of way, or "common land" as there own, and loosing there fluffy minds when they are told that they cant even sue somebody, happens like clockwork. Luckily there are also a good number of people who move for love, or true oportunity, or just to be in a quieter place, and they do just fine, and plenty of multigenerational dual citizenship familys, who move back and forth

by metalman

6/3/2026 at 11:26:53 AM

Canadians have told me Nova Scotia has had population decline over the past generation. Are there vacant homes and disused land there?

by Schlagbohrer

6/3/2026 at 11:24:41 AM

I hate it when americans use the false statistic of comparing waiting times for healthcare between the usa and another country. It's a false statistic because in the united states, there are a great many people who need healthcare but can't afford it so their waiting time is inifinity truncated only by the fact that they'll eventually die. If their wait times were averaged in with all the americans who are rich enough to see a doctor, the stats wouldn't look so rosy.

In a universal healthcare system the average wait times might be higher but every single person gets the healthcare they need.

by Schlagbohrer

6/3/2026 at 4:55:01 PM

It's a false statistic because the US has pretty terrible waiting times as well. Here we're just told that we have "choice", so those waiting times become our own responsibility rather than the system's.

by mindslight

6/3/2026 at 6:43:50 AM

I was lucky enough to visit the US before Trump's 1st term back in 2015. I even considered working there. Sure, the customs and TSA were uncomfortable experiences, but that's nothing compared to what my dual-citizenship colleague had on a recent trip.

They were taken into a backroom for questioning at Houston airport for hours with no explanation and ultimately let go with no apologies, nothing. The "crime" was using their European passport, methinks. They are not going back to US after that experience.

by aemoron

6/3/2026 at 6:56:07 AM

Generally if you are a citizen of a country you are expected to enter and leave on that passport.

The UK has recently implemented the system

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2d9yk2kpjo

Canada

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

Australia is just a should

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/entering-and-leaving-austral...

NZ requires an endorsement of not travelling on an NZ passport

https://www.immigration.govt.nz/process-to-apply/once-you-ha...

by hdgvhicv

6/3/2026 at 8:57:03 AM

> it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1185#b

by diogocp

6/3/2026 at 4:52:28 PM

So that seems like something that should be easily dealt with in a few minutes - request that they present their US passport, apprise them of the fine for entering without having obtained a US passport, and/or turn them away since their entry would be illegal. None of these require hours of questioning in a back room.

I'm tired of this trend of people using a violation of the law, especially administrative style infractions, as a justification for arbitrary horribleness.

by mindslight

6/3/2026 at 10:37:32 AM

TLDR: First, deportation. Second: Americans realizing they lose nothing by moving abroad, enjoy cheap housing, cheap healthcare, cheap ... while still holding US jobs at US wages.

by spwa4

6/3/2026 at 9:00:38 AM

[flagged]

by ricksunny