alt.hn

5/30/2026 at 5:49:48 PM

Let's talk about EU Sovereignty (2025)

 https://musings.martyn.berlin/lets-talk-about-eu-sovereignty

by mooreds

5/30/2026 at 6:43:35 PM

> Yes, the EU “cloud providers” are lagging behind but they’re catching up. Scaleway, Herzner, and others are there, and you should check them out if you’re starting a business in the EU.

I would argue that these aren't even "cloud providers", they are just VPS providers. Which is fine, but it's not the same thing.

There really isn't any European "cloud" service at all, which is a huge part of the problem. And I doubt there ever will be because who would even build it?

It would cost billions and billions of euros just to be "not AWS" (but worse in every way except location). Who is investing in that?

by petcat

5/30/2026 at 7:50:11 PM

>they are just VPS providers

Are we really bringing back this debate from 10 or may be 15 years when we started? Is Digital Ocean, Linode not a cloud provider. They were the VPS provider at the time.

I think in the end I agree with one of the argument, as long as these VPS providers give you a VPS that is charged per hour or per seconds, then they are cloud. Which ultimately is a server that is easily scaled up or down and charged on a time usage basis, when VPS at the time were a fixed monthly price.

by ksec

5/30/2026 at 7:08:22 PM

But why would the Europeans want to copy the US "cloud" model of micro-compartmentalizing services into hundreds of abstracted products carefully designed to have circular dependencies between each other ..... And all shipped with price sheets billed in invented unit metrics and more small-print than a packet of prescription drugs that makes it completely impossible to predict how much you're going to pay.

I'll take the cleaner approach with predictable billing offered by the EU providers. Even if it means using my brain to RTFM and edit a couple of config files (which can then be rolled into automation via images or Ansible or whatever).

by traceroute66

5/30/2026 at 7:43:51 PM

> But why would the Europeans want to copy the US "cloud" model of micro-compartmentalizing services…

Maybe it’s the best approach? Maybe it’s more profitable and European companies want to grow their business?

by ericmay

5/30/2026 at 10:59:32 PM

best for who? for the cloud provider for all the vendor lockins? theres hardly anything i like about the popular cloud providers to be honest

by pheggs

5/30/2026 at 8:48:07 PM

If Europe copy winner takes fraud is allowed and price transparency higwash ideology, then it will also end up with exact copy of current American dysfunction - ultimately including loss of democracy, Trump figure with unchecked power and failing constitution.

Europe can fail on its own, but recreating the exact billionaires are able to scam everything will make it fail faster.

by watwut

5/30/2026 at 6:51:51 PM

You cannot possibly with a straight face claim that Scaleway is a VPS provider. Hetzner, sure, but Scaleway offers compute and database services in the same way that AWS does - just fewer.

by tormeh

5/30/2026 at 8:49:49 PM

This. I'm presently running serverless containers, serverless jobs, managed container registry, managed database, virtual private network, IAM policies, DNS, managed Grafana and object storage on Scaleway for a project I'm working on. Doesn't get more cloud than that.

Sure, Scaleway still lags behind the big three cloud providers in the US. But the US providers have a lot more money and been around much longer. Scaleway is quickly expanding its feature set though. They've recently introduced managed Clickhouse and OpenSearch among other things.

by snorremd

5/31/2026 at 5:41:00 AM

Hetzner for sure?

Hetzner Cloud is simple to use, but it's a distinguishing feature, not a bug.

by sam_lowry_

5/31/2026 at 11:00:32 AM

I think in order to call youself a cloud you must offer blob storage, managed Kubernetes, and managed Postgres. That is the absolute minimum to me.

by tormeh

5/30/2026 at 7:46:29 PM

A lot of people actually are. I am running multiple apps on EU-based clouds offers (most PaaS rather than VPS), to the tune of multiple billion queries per year.

The offer really has moved, and people are taking it seriously.

Also: not worst in every dimension at all. For instance, you actually get serious support, no matter your size, a much better version of what premium accounts give you at AWS/GCP etc.

by thibaut_barrere

5/30/2026 at 7:18:08 PM

This…

It’s painful being a non-EU person working here, and hearing people wax lyrical about sovereign EU cloud without an actual product or product plan.

And once a product is anctua shipped and offered it is like already 5 years behind what US clouds are offering.

It’s embarrassing really

by parheric

5/30/2026 at 8:25:55 PM

US clouds offer are featureful not first because it is useful, but because it is the best way to ensure vendor lock-in. A lot of implementors are now realizing that you can achieve the same level of service, or better, with less cloud features.

by thibaut_barrere

5/30/2026 at 6:51:35 PM

No. "Cloud" is a marketing term for VPSs.

by nish__

5/30/2026 at 7:23:32 PM

I disagree, "cloud" is extracting basic Linux functions into as many proprietary services as possible because businesses would rather deal with obscure YAML configurations than ever having to touch Linux-proper.

by input_sh

5/30/2026 at 7:34:31 PM

I would say the most added value, keeping your angle, is auto-updating Linux, and assuming/handling the security vulnerabilities updates.

by eastbound

5/30/2026 at 7:59:31 PM

I'm sure the vast majority of businesses can handle ~10 min of scheduled downtime per week necessary to restart everything.

Now, database replication, not having to waste time to run/maintain clusters (be it Kubernetes or Elastic stack or something else), that I believe is well worth the money to offload to someone else, but even there you can get a much cheaper deal with someone that's not one of the three big cloud providers. I will also concede that Firebase is genuinely nicer to work with than its alternatives (Supabase very much included).

by input_sh

5/30/2026 at 8:38:39 PM

It's frequently simplifying things so that you don't have to worry about managing a server at all.

I run a PowerShell script once a day at noon, and I have no idea what kind of server it's running on, where in the world that server is, how much memory it has, or any other details. I get about a CPU, a dozen MB of memory, and a tiny amount of network capacity for about 5 seconds.

This is a very different experience from "We will rent you a VPS by the month".

by AndrewDucker

5/30/2026 at 7:45:27 PM

That's like saying "Cars are a marketing term for internal combustion engines."

Clouds give you software-definable load balancers, networking, clustering, integrated systemwide security, and a boatload of managed services like message queues, databases, AI training and inference, etc. etc.

No-one sane implements all that using a collection of VPSes, because of a simple principle of business: it's more profitable to focus investment on your core competencies, and for almost all companies, managing a non-trivial computing infrastructure is decidedly not a core competency.

by antonvs

5/30/2026 at 6:50:50 PM

> Who is investing in that?

Big companies that see the opportunity to be "Not AWS"?

A VPS provider who wants to grow their marketshare?

Nation states?

Not saying it'll be a small effort, but if the US continues to wield national laws to coerce American companies to negatively affect European citizens, it's possible.

by mooreds

5/30/2026 at 8:39:20 PM

Even if they dont care us "law" it is costing us businesses a fortune.

National security by ruining the market and alienating allies to the point of uniting the world against you???

by theendisney

5/30/2026 at 9:20:55 PM

Good thing is that in EU we still have a lot of people who know how to write software. Like, in programming languages.

by oytis

5/30/2026 at 6:52:06 PM

> And I doubt there ever will be because who would even build it?

My money would be on the French.

by yubblegum

5/30/2026 at 8:39:19 PM

I know Cyso Cloud (previously Fuga Cloud - still Netherlands-hosted) lets you host K8S applications, and has S3-compatible storage. Is that what you mean with "cloud"?

by NostraDavid

5/31/2026 at 2:22:58 AM

OVH is a cloud provider, and a large one. It is by far the largest EU provider.

by Thaxll

5/30/2026 at 8:38:47 PM

I see a lot of conversation here about provider feature parity, but my hope is that sovereignty doesn't have to be strictly about the region or company you choose. For me, the strongest form of sovereignty can come at a lower level. That is, running on an open-source stack you can pick up and run somewhere else should you need to. If your data and workloads live on standard Kubernetes with Postgres, object storage and the usual Prometheus/Grafana/Loki, then no single provider (EU or otherwise) actually has you over a barrel. As the article points out, the "AWS Europe is a separate subsidiary" argument does nothing if the software still ships from the USA.

Shameless plug: We started our company[0] on this basis, i.e. managed Kubernetes on bare metal in EU DCs. We run everything on open source tooling, provide DevOps engineering time to our customers' engineering teams, take on the migration risk ourselves, and offer response-time SLAs. So yes I'm biased, but I did this because I do actually really believe in this approach.

So I'd flip it around. Perhaps building a sovereign hyperscaler is the wrong approach. I'd say we need workloads that aren't welded to any one provider in the first place. And open source tools have come a very long way since EC2 first came online.

[0] - https://lithus.eu/

by adamcharnock

5/30/2026 at 8:49:40 PM

> If your data and workloads live on standard Kubernetes with Postgres, object storage and the usual Prometheus/Grafana/Loki, then no single provider (EU or otherwise) actually has you over a barrel.

I’ve heard this refrain most of my career - and believed it at one point. But the bytes themselves are heavy and hard to move.

Multiple projects I’ve worked on in my career would have had to _physically move_ the data (plane, train, semi) if they wanted to migrate - there was no reasonable way to get the data out of the datacenter over network on any reasonable timeframe.

by r3trohack3r

5/30/2026 at 8:00:11 PM

This was not a thing one year ago, but now it is really part of the conversation. In our company the goal is to reduce by two thirds our expenses in digital services by focusing on self hosting and European alternatives. Is it inconvenient? Mildly so, but for most things there are alternatives available once you start looking into them

by ftomassetti

5/30/2026 at 7:02:19 PM

I feel the article is a bit roundabout, but eventually gets to the point: "Sovereignty" is not (mainly) about physical location, it's about which legal entity controls the data and whether or not that entity is subject to US jurisdiction and could be forced to disclose the data to US companies or agencies, in violation of EU law.

by xg15

5/30/2026 at 7:08:16 PM

Which is mightily funny because in the opening paragraph the article equates "anti-free movement" with "problematic baggage". It's a problem if people can't move freely in and out of Europe, but not data -- that's our red line!

by politician

5/30/2026 at 8:49:20 PM

I typically don't have to worry about somebody "sneaking and selling my body for their profit" without me, at least, being aware of it.

by nickv

5/30/2026 at 7:10:22 PM

I mean... Yes? People and data about people are two different things - as is who is doing the "movement" in the first place.

Would you also support free movement of all the valuables in your bank vault?

by xg15

5/31/2026 at 12:30:03 AM

This doesn't make sense as a rebuttal.

Article is OK with people moving uncontrolled in/out/around Europe. Article is NOT OK with data moving uncontrolled in/out/around Europe.

It's stupid. It's quintessential luxury belief thinking.

The article supposes that there exists people that fear their data being misused but don't fear their taxes being misused on welfare for a random population of benefit seekers.

The article would have been better without the self-own "problematic baggage" language.

by politician

5/31/2026 at 4:58:30 AM

Because you have so much insight how your taxes are used otherwise. But welfare, that's where you draw the line...

Just ask yourself who would be doing the misuse to see that this comparison makes no sense.

by xg15

5/30/2026 at 6:56:15 PM

So when is France/Germany going to subsidize a local competitor, say through anchor customers like their militaries

by boredatoms

5/30/2026 at 8:07:55 PM

Bring back the minitel.

by crimsoneer

5/30/2026 at 7:34:39 PM

For me (as an EU citizen), sovereignty is about being independent of companies operating under law that I have no control of (can't vote in the US) and is veeery unpredictible (Trump administration). I don't want to wake up one day I find out my bill tripped because of some tax imposed on EU or completely cut off, because the president woke up in bad mood that morning. EU is very fat from perfect, but for me it is still closer to home, and I truly root for any EU company that tries to take on the US behemoths. I moved everything from GCP and AWS to Hetzner, and am moving from Github to Codeberg.

Unfortunately, it's realty hard. The US giants have offerings that no one in EU has and I am investing huge amounts of time into working around them (e.g. Windows and MacOS CI runners on Github - try to get this for free in EU). I'm fine with paying a bit for this, but even then it's a huge hassle to set it up to be able to get CI checks for my projects on Windows/MacOS. And it's not cheap either. I can afford it, but it is still very expensive.

by dvratil

5/30/2026 at 7:50:13 PM

> try to get this for free in EU

And therein lies the problem. As long as people are unwilling to pay for services, the winning services will always be the most predatory ones that make their money by selling their users to other companies.

by antonvs

5/30/2026 at 7:49:18 PM

I’m not sure why Europeans always bring Trump in here when it comes to this topic, except perhaps he, successfully it appears, woke many of them up from the slumber of dependency on global supply chains, of course, that Americans have been talking about for quite some time.

You can’t vote in American elections, true, but you also can’t vote for the Ayatollah or Saudi Prince who controls your oil supply, the Brazilian president where your rubber comes from, or a Chinese Communist Party official who manufactures your stuff, nor do you vote for elections in other EU countries and I’d argue your EU vote is but an abstract concept of a vote.

You’ve never had control (no country fully does), and so, are you only now waking up to that fact and have been goaded out of a once peaceful slumber? If so you should probably thank Donald Trump, sadly enough. But I’d stop focusing on him when the US is by far the least of Europe’s collective concerns.

by ericmay

5/30/2026 at 8:13:12 PM

He said exactly why: because Trump's policies are unpredictable. Before that, there was no problem, really. Of course, it's a political movement and Trump is much a symptom as a disease, but you're saying we should thank him for bringing about this unpredictability — because now we can see that unpredictability is possible? There's something seriously loopy about that argument. It's like asking one to thank the burglars because they woke them from their peaceful slumber of safety...

by pegasus

5/31/2026 at 1:23:32 AM

i think you re over-indexing on Trump and not recognizing that this has been a problem for Europe for much longer than Trump has been a serious political figure. Europe has and to some extent is still very much asleep and holding on to a world that no longer exists. Hyper-focusing on Trump is a dangerous manifestation of that antiquated understanding of the world. The US is at the bottom of Europe’s list of problems.

by ericmay

5/31/2026 at 2:25:54 AM

You've just reiterated the exact same points you made in the comment I replied to. Consider that it might be you who is getting hung up* on the "Trump" name, which, in common discourse, can, and usually does function as a signifier not just for the man himself but for the Trumpist political attitude and movement, and even more generally, the quasi-fascist/quasi-monarchist regressive politically infantile post-truth nationalist/authoritarian-revival movements which we are witnessing world-wide. Declaring that this phenomenon is "at the bottom of Europe's list of problems" might sound like surprising and important, but it's just plain false.

As for Europe being "asleep", who isn't? I would say the US is just as much (if not more) asleep, wondering unwittingly into a techno-dystopian future. Or look at how they have been whiplashed by China's rise (which has their own big problems too). Not to mention the more recent disastrous reputational decline on the world scene. Of course, that wouldn't happen if Americans would recognize these dangers and not imagine themselves self-importantly as singularly awake at the wheel of international politics and economics while the car is heading head-long into the proverbial ditch.

*I assume that this is what you mean by "over-indexing" – I'm not feeling like digging around for the origin and exact meaning of this phrase, which is definitely not common English.

by pegasus

5/31/2026 at 11:34:18 AM

> I'm not feeling like digging around for the origin and exact meaning of this phrase, which is definitely not common English.

Just to start here, the term is very common in America.

> Declaring that this phenomenon is "at the bottom of Europe's list of problems" might sound like surprising and important, but it's just plain false.

Well I can think of 3 problems right now that are much more pressing for Europe:

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the broad inability of the EU to come to its aid in 2022.

China and hollowing out of European manufacturing. Germany in particular is shedding manufacturing jobs - common knowledge but happy to provide a few sources if this is a new development for you.

Migration crises and war in the Middle East that the EU is unable to address militarily or diplomatically.

Donald Trump saying a few mean words and initiating tariffs obviously start to fall in the EU problems rankings once we just start talking about the global geopolitical and strategic situation.

> As for Europe being "asleep", who isn't? I would say the US is just as much (if not more) asleep,

Both the US and China are leaving the rest of the world behind. As you noted, both have issues. The US started during the first Trump term to begin addressing posed by China’s continued economic and military challenges and continued through the Biden term via various legislation and policies, and now continues again during Trump’s 2nd term.

You seem to look at actions like arresting Maduro or attacking Iran from the perspective that such actions are harming international reputation or are the whims of, well pick whichever word you already used to describe him, but these are actions showing that the US is instead of “sleeping” actually very much awake and taking important strategic and necessary action. I can walk you through those as well if you’d like.

by ericmay

5/30/2026 at 7:56:21 PM

Is it really "EU" Sovereignty? And not its member's Sovereignty?

by ksec

5/30/2026 at 9:09:06 PM

It's just Digital Sovereignty.

by NostraDavid

5/30/2026 at 8:00:15 PM

Such heresy is detrimental to EU sovereignty... next you're going to remind people that some states are in the EU despite their citizens having opposed going in there.

TBH, EU member states can be plenty oppressive when they want to, so - why not just take it to the next level and have all-European overlords?

by einpoklum

5/30/2026 at 8:52:06 PM

There's literally an entire section in the Treaty of the EU on the exact criteria to leave the EU. A country has literally _left_ the EU. Nobody is being held hostage to stay in the EU.

"Despite their citizens having opposed going in there." Can you point to a vote to invoke Article 50 that was not honored by the EU? Can you point to a country getting admission into the EU without a vote from their people?

by nickv

5/30/2026 at 8:09:21 PM

That's a rather odd point. One country has left the EU due to a very narrow 'exit' vote, so it's not anyone's prison. Across surveys the EU enjoys broad support, often even more so than the national government.

Clearly not everyone loves the EU but the majorities are very much in favour (and certainly this is the case among the people who actually understand politics, economics, etc.).

by goobatrooba

5/30/2026 at 8:25:21 PM

I think the grandparent references many referendums that rejected EU treaties:

- Maastricht Treaty, 1992, Denmark, - European Constitution, 2005, France and Netherlands, - Lisbon Treaty, 2008, Ireland.

The votes were usually redone and passed. The exception is Norway which refused to join twice.

> Clearly not everyone loves the EU but the majorities are very much in favour (and certainly this is the case among the people who actually understand politics, economics, etc.).

This is quite the loaded statement. I've heard from people on either both sides of the argument that understood politics and economics very well (professors, lecturers, etc.)

by green7ea

5/30/2026 at 10:00:37 PM

It's always interesting to see accounts popping up in this thread trying to delegitimize EU and spew out bunch of vague misleading statements against it.

Why is that? Which EU citizen protection is angering you? :)

by izacus

5/31/2026 at 6:42:39 AM

Nothing of that is angering me, I live in the EU and life is pretty nice.

My comment above was meant to provide context and to point out that both sides of the argument can be legitimate.

The comment is neutral, you shouldn't be able to infer what I think about the EU from it. It simply points out facts and says that reducing a point of view to being uninformed is too easy.

My stance on the EU is complex: it does good, it does bad, it affects each member states differently, it changes over time. Those are all pretty neutral statements too, only siths live in extremes ;-).

by green7ea

5/30/2026 at 7:08:09 PM

For start organizations thwt are sponsored by non-SU entities should disclose their conflict of interest!

by rirkrkrkfkfkfkf

5/30/2026 at 8:46:52 PM

> I really dislike the term because it’s laden with all sorts of militaristic and anti-free movement and all sorts of other problematic baggage

Then call it "Digital Sovereignty" instead. That's what we call it in the Netherlands.

> but it’s the term the industry is using

OK, and? Sounds like it is time to push back. It's like talking about "lower" and "higher" education. Just call it practical and theoretical education instead. Much more descriptive; doesn't talk down to people we seriously need in the coming decades.

by NostraDavid

5/30/2026 at 7:54:56 PM

> ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT

Ah yes, EU Sovereignty when a post makes it to the HN front page.

by janpeuker

5/30/2026 at 7:07:53 PM

This is such a dumb topic to me - and I work closely to this issue. The blog post talks about criminal surveillance and gag order possibilities - but has no examples of these being meaningfully applied. Eu govt also spies on citizens.

Obviously the true political point is the geopolitical security risk of depending on another country. There's some truth there but really all countries depend on all others and the way to balance it is to use and grow the trading leverage you do have, not trying to shore up your weaknesses.

by johndhi

5/30/2026 at 7:26:25 PM

The EU's "E-Evidence framework" allows authorities in any member state to compel entities doing business in any part of the EU to produce and/or preserve communications data, completely by-passing cross-border barriers.

_e.g._ Victor Orban could have wiretapped any communication within the EU. Supporter by an EU directive

by pacaro

5/30/2026 at 7:36:33 PM

> Victor Orban could have wiretapped any communication within the EU. Supporter by an EU directive

Don't spread such bullshit FUD.

The E‑Evidence package contains multiple legal and procedural safeguards:

    1. Judicial authorisation
    2. Scope limits
    3. Proportionality and necessity tests
    4. Channels for challenge and review
    5. Data-protection rules
    6. Natinoal enforcements and remedies
Cross-border orders must be issued as European Production Order (EPO) or European Preservation Order (EPO‑PR).

The Regulation defines what can be optained and when. And wiretapping (i.e. content and traffic) is striclty limited to serious offences. Blanket mass surveillance is EXPLICITLY NOT POSSIBLE.

A judge is required for sensitive categories, e.g. wiretapping. And factual grounds must be provided demonstrating necessity.

The Regulation EXPLICITLY requires that orders be necessary and proportionate for criminal investigation

The member state where the service provider (or its EU representative) is established is notified when an EPO/EPO‑PR is sent, giving an additional oversight channel and the enforcing authority a role in examining objections.

The CJEU remains a backstop on top of national authorities.

by traceroute66

5/30/2026 at 7:46:31 PM

Sovereignty erodes with giving control to outside entities.

I just came to Netherlands for a short visit and oh my god how much better the food is (comparing to Canada mostly).

Please, please stay sovereign.

by nullorempty

5/30/2026 at 7:55:58 PM

> came to Netherlands for a short visit and oh my god how much better the food is

I really don't want to know what the food is like where you came from, but it may be a WMD test or something. You should get human rights activists and lawyers working on it.

by usrnm

5/30/2026 at 7:58:58 PM

Now imagine Netherlands has a reputation in Europe as having the most bland and utilitarian cuisine.

by gobdovan

5/30/2026 at 8:43:14 PM

I presume nullorempty got a Kapsalon (fries with Doner Kebab - it's so fucking good) and entered heaven for a few minutes.

by NostraDavid

5/30/2026 at 8:48:33 PM

No :) but that's on the list. I refer to store items starting with basic ones - bread and butter.

by nullorempty

5/30/2026 at 8:04:05 PM

Things which very rarely receive compliments in the Netherlands haha

If you like Dutch food, your tastebuds might literally explode when you encounter real French or Italian cuisine lol

by gib444

5/30/2026 at 7:08:55 PM

If an EU company refuses to play ball with the US, the US can simply compel the company through sanctions, as it is trying to do with ICC judges.

Travel bans, visa/mastercard, debanking, the whole nine yards.

by CrzyLngPwd

5/30/2026 at 7:42:52 PM

Visa/Mastercard are almost obsolete in most EU countries. If they disappeared there is multitude of better options than ancient cards.

by weezing

5/30/2026 at 7:56:30 PM

What, like electronic payments using phones running American operating systems? With the bonus that you have two new gatekeepers that can lock your citizens out (Apple and Google).

by 201984

5/30/2026 at 10:07:43 PM

Harmony OS looks great. I cant wait for the EU version. We will again have a hilarious discussion about US apps. Peeping tom and his lawless army of handsy friskers.

by theendisney

5/30/2026 at 10:36:11 PM

So you'd switch USA for China, and still have a foreign dependency embedded into the very fabric of your society. Do you not see a problem with this?

by 201984

5/30/2026 at 11:00:46 PM

Oh, i mean a EU Phone OS. Eventually it has to happen. It will of course be entirely ceremonial and run on chinese made hardware with US apps.

by theendisney