3/26/2026 at 12:49:50 AM
lots of exciting battery developments in general, especially if donut labs by some miracle is not a fraud.it was a bit worrying as there was somewhat of a stagnation in battery chemistry, but having non toxic/dangerous battery storage is going to make off-griding so much more attractive.
technically speaking, if every household had solar panels and batteries it would not only be cheaper than the grid it would also have complete independence from oil fluctuations, weather disasters and centralization.
now if you combine that with electric cars that charge off your off-grid system and transition to eletric appliances instead of something like gas the benefits keep stacking all while being pretty much net neutral post manufacturing.
by himata4113
3/26/2026 at 6:56:26 AM
I have had a set of panels on my roof for years, but I think going off grid is overrated unless it becomes drastically cheaper than being on grid.Grid level batteries are going to be a more efficient way of using the same materials to achieve a particular level of supply. It's just at the moment there's a "competency arbitrage" where infrastructure is way slower than building it yourself.
by pjc50
3/26/2026 at 7:54:34 AM
I can attest that. I installed panels on my house, they are not enough to cover my electrocity needs, let alone gas (heating). Even if it would be enough to cover electricity needs, the cost was (upfront) more than the equivalent of the next 20 years in bills.To be fair, many of the costs are because of high demand (artificial, because the gov. mandates it to be installed) and lots of work to be integrated in the national grid. But as things are right now, it not economically convenient (at least where I live) and for what I have heard, in other places is not much different.
by f1shy
3/26/2026 at 8:35:23 AM
As an owner of household solar panels, there are weeks, sometimes even months with very little solar products, especially during the colder months.While I don't regret getting them, they are absolutely not good enough to be the only solution.
by torginus
3/26/2026 at 7:02:51 PM
I think if energy storage is cheap enough and solar panel pricing continues to go down (especially with this new tech) a time where you can have 10 days of reserve and 50%+ overproduction is not that far away IMO. Small 2-3 floor apartments especially can benefit from a mini local grid, each roof + shared land is a lot of sun real-estate.It doesn't have to be perfect a generator with ~7 days of fuel can go a really long way for any kind of low solar activity event. 7 days of fuel is roughly half the size of the generator.
At the end of the day it's math, figure exactly what is needed, if it works out then great, if not, continue waiting.
by himata4113
3/26/2026 at 9:57:16 AM
yeah solar is largely geographic dependenthowever in the southern hemisphere - solar is a win .
by dzonga
3/26/2026 at 1:28:12 PM
Southern hemisphere receives roughly the same amount of sunlight as northern.Solar is a win everywhere with a sunny weather.
by ponector
3/26/2026 at 8:43:24 PM
But land is not distributed equally in the two hemispheres. In the southern hemisphere it's generally concentrated near the equator, where it gets more sunlight.by SkiFire13
3/26/2026 at 2:40:22 AM
People just don’t realise how energy intensive a manufacturing economy is.Which is fine if your fantasy includes offshoring all of that and shipping the finished products in to the local market.
Which, no matter how you slice it, has to be more energy intensive than manufacturing locally.
by nandomrumber
3/26/2026 at 7:33:36 AM
The globe looks radically different when presented in transport-energy-cost-distance.Bulk container ships are crazy efficient. It makes more energy sense for a nation like France to trade with the eastern US than it does with Hungary.
by athrowaway3z
3/26/2026 at 9:23:27 AM
They’re crazy efficient because they use bunker fuel and have zero legal requirements because they all flag up as a country with no laws.by MagicMoonlight
3/26/2026 at 8:04:59 AM
I’d like to add construction materials to the list of energy intensive products. Glass, bricks, rockwool and cement.by CamelCaseCondo
3/26/2026 at 3:50:29 AM
nothing stops them from also using swarms of solar panels on their roofs to at minimum offset the energy needs, localized power plants to save on transmission costs, raw high voltage power.Hetzner does this!
by himata4113
3/26/2026 at 4:32:12 AM
[dead]by TheSpiceIsLife
3/26/2026 at 3:06:32 AM
if every household had solar panels and batteriesHigh density housing is unlikely to be compatible with that.
Also rental dwelling owners and people with limited economic resources tend to be less likely to make those kinds of capital investment.
by brudgers
3/26/2026 at 11:22:40 AM
> High density housing is unlikely to be compatible with that.To the level of total energy independence? Indeed. But even an apartment can get some PV.
There's even PV specifically designed for renters in apartments.
> Also rental dwelling owners and people with limited economic resources tend to be less likely to make those kinds of capital investment.
Not so: https://www.lidl.de/p/tronic-balkonkraftwerk-860-wp-800-w-to...
As per my first line, 800 W is not going to be total energy independence.
But it's €249, cheaper than all but the cheapest phones.
In the best case, it can pay for itself in the first year; though obviously a north-facing apartment gets almost nothing from it.
by ben_w
3/26/2026 at 4:48:19 AM
They are not forced to make those kinds of capital investments if they're unable - they'd be no worse off than today. Those who do get cheaper electricity (in lieu of whatever they could've otherwise spent that capital on).However, it's the onus of the gov't (regional or federal) to create the investment needed for large, industrial scale solar and battery storage. That's what taxpayer money should be spent on.
by chii
3/26/2026 at 5:55:48 AM
> they'd be no worse off than today.They will, assuming the people that went off grid stop paying for it. As fewer people pay for it the costs per capita grow
by hvb2
3/26/2026 at 6:29:39 AM
The cost of the grid has already been paid for. Upgrades to the grid has a higher per-capita cost, if there's fewer people paying for those upgrades today.But they're not worse off, because the upgrades are better. For them to be worse off, the upgrades they pay for has to be worse than what they got today.
by chii
3/26/2026 at 8:47:32 PM
> The cost of the grid has already been paid for.You should really talk to some California utilities and their wildfire exposure.
And anywhere else, anything you put up you need to maintain. And aren't most grids built with loans anyway? That interest would be born by fewer people.
Not sure if you own a house, if you do, here's a thought experiment.
It's all paid for, right? Doesn't cost a thing to own a home?
by hvb2
3/26/2026 at 9:32:24 AM
Maintenance costs money as well.by jurgenburgen
3/26/2026 at 3:52:37 AM
yah, this is more for low density/mid density housing, I am sure the roots of 2-3 floor apts should be more than enough to sustain it as energy needs of apartments are lower to begin with. They can also bleed them into parking lots and have cover from the sun.by himata4113
3/26/2026 at 8:06:47 AM
Even at 2-3 stories, I'm skeptical that there's enough roof surface area to provide enough solar panels to individually cover the electrical use of all the inhabitants. Many 2-3 story apartment buildings don't have parking lots at all - and it's a common pro-density urbanist political project to remove the requirements to build one, because it discourages car use and also makes projects cheaper - but even if they did, a small apartment also means less surface area for solar panels over the parking lot. And once you're in a building with multiple households, that means that the solar panels - and the amount of energy every individual household draws from them - has to be managed communally. I'm glad I don't have to justify the power use of my home server to a group of my neighbors concerned about managing a common resource, and just pay my power bill to the de-facto-monopoly state-regulated electric utility company.by JuniperMesos
3/26/2026 at 7:06:02 PM
You would be surprised how little power european households consume, but we do have central/gas heating so the math doesn't always work out perfectly. 100-200W for lights/tv/fridge, oven/induction/kettle for 2h ~2000W a day. That's something the solar panels can most definitely handle, of course this is on case by case basis. I consume 300W at idle as I have a home server :)Apartments have walls too, but we're getting into a territory where it might start becoming ugly.
by himata4113
3/26/2026 at 8:25:28 PM
If you care about getting the population to switch en masse from gas heating to electric-powered heat pump heating - which is an explicit social/political goal of a number of people I know, and one that I'm simultaneously sympathetic to and have serious qualms about - then everyone's gas consumption needs to go down and everyone's electricity consumption needs to go up. Also once you have a heat pump, you have an air conditioner - it's the same technology - and that means that people will want to use it to cool their dwellings in the hot months of the year, even if they weren't previously able to do this with just a gas-powered furnace, resulting in even more electricity consumption.Honestly, I think it's fine to just keep the electric grid as it is, and not attempt to power every building only from the amount of solar electricity that it can generate from its roof area. The electric grid lets us take advantage of economies of scale, build gigantic solar arrays or nuclear power plants on cheap land outside of town, and crucially leave the management of that grid up to one well-known organization rather than a consortium of several households in an apartment.
by JuniperMesos
3/26/2026 at 7:36:14 AM
Can put panels on walls too.by rjsw
3/26/2026 at 2:30:12 PM
If the local climate can support going off-grid then batteries makes absolute sense.The problem starts when you need the grid for some amount of the year or in periods over several years. As consumer we would like to pay 10% of an annual electrical bill if we can produce the remaining 90% ourself. The grid however want to have be paid for investments in power plants and transmission, and to them, costs associated with consumption is only one part of the bill. If the customer consume less energy, and the costs in infrastructure is the same or greater, then they will continue charge the consumer for the full year. In that scenario, you may only consume 10% but your bill will remain at close to 100%. As a consumer one could decide to go without those 10%, but that in itself can be dangerous or expensive, in which case paying 100% may still be rational.
by belorn
3/26/2026 at 7:53:18 AM
>technically speaking, if every household had solar panels and batteries it would not only be cheaper than the gridAbsolutely not, economies of scale. To say nothing of the cost incurred when an issue appears with your installation (lightning strike, water damage, etc) would be much higher.
by Jean-Papoulos
3/26/2026 at 8:09:31 AM
The problem is that the grid doesn’t really get economies of scale.Just the grid is often up to 50% of people’s electricity bills, cutting that out is a massive saving.
I think we might see a future where the grid becomes smaller. Still utility scale but skip the continental transmissions and instead run a local city scale grid with renewables, storage and a chemical based carbon neutral backup.
by ViewTrick1002
3/26/2026 at 3:15:28 AM
"it would also have complete independence from oil fluctuations..." Indeed. A foreign country can't turn the sun off. And yet Trump.(Pardon me if you live in another country. I'm starting to wish I did.)
by mcswell
3/26/2026 at 6:45:46 AM
Technically, you can turn off the sun with a nuclear winter. But in that case your main problem would be starvation anyway.by puzzlingcaptcha
3/26/2026 at 5:26:47 AM
It's batshit crazy that the most powerful and influential person in the world dismisses the above (practical, clinical and irrefutable) as "a green scam" and people go along with it. We do so at our peril on so many levels.by ethagnawl
3/26/2026 at 2:40:01 AM
"weather disasters "Solar does seem to be influenced by those, though. So before battery storage is really, really cheap and plenty, for off grid situations I do would prefer backup gas as well.
(can also be produced locally: https://www.homebiogas.com/shop/backyard-systems/homebiogas-...)
by lukan
3/26/2026 at 2:07:18 AM
Having some natural gas purely as a secondary emergency heat source is well worth it IMO.by brightball
3/26/2026 at 3:51:26 AM
having a military grade generator (can pick up decomissioned ones for pretty cheap) as a backup still works.by himata4113
3/26/2026 at 5:29:10 PM
I was thinking just high heat output gas logs. Heat source, you can cook on them and it's not loud.by brightball
3/26/2026 at 3:05:07 AM
It might not be needed though if you have a battery generator and enough solar panels.But if you have a BBQ with propane and the sun didn't shine for many many days that should be sufficient.
by blondie9x
3/26/2026 at 5:13:29 AM
Your comment is ambiguous; in the event that anybody is interpreting this as "use your propane BBQ to heat your house" don't do that. You are highly likely to get a first-hand experience of CO toxicity.by aidenn0
3/26/2026 at 5:47:05 AM
Interesting that the script has flipped, now china is leading breakthroughs and hardware startup culture is perpetuating fraudsby casey2