alt.hn

3/3/2026 at 5:18:24 AM

Daily Driving GrapheneOS

 https://blog.matthewbrunelle.com/8-4-months-of-daily-driving-grapheneos/

by zdw

3/3/2026 at 12:40:39 PM

PSA: For folks looking for a swipe enabled keyboard on GrapheneOS without using Google's gboard, try Heliboard - https://f-droid.org/packages/helium314.keyboard/. It's 100% FOSS, but can also use the binary blob from google's gesture typing library "swypelibs" to provide swipe typing. Since helium can't access the internet, I am okay with that.

by haskman

3/3/2026 at 9:23:21 PM

I think they recently finished reimplementing the swipe library so now it no longer requires blobs.

by backscratches

3/3/2026 at 1:14:55 PM

How does this compare to FlorisBoard?

by noman-land

3/3/2026 at 6:01:43 PM

Florisboard does not have swipe gesture typing which is basically a deal breaker for me

by haskman

3/3/2026 at 8:02:58 PM

Also try the Urik Keyboard APP from f-droid

by r0l1

3/5/2026 at 4:26:25 PM

I just tried it out, it looks great! The swipe typing is a little less predictable than heliboard, but that might be because I am used to that one

by haskman

3/4/2026 at 9:29:38 PM

I use GBoard without internet permission.

by icar

3/5/2026 at 3:09:06 AM

Google apps can talk to each other even without internet permissions. So even one app having internet permissions is enough to leak your data

by haskman

3/3/2026 at 9:35:52 PM

There's also FUTO Keyboard (https://keyboard.futo.org/). Nothing against Heliboard (I actually don't even remember why I chose it over Heliboard). Just another good option.

by yepguy

3/3/2026 at 11:08:31 PM

FUTO, unlike everything else discussed here, is not FOSS.

https://gitlab.futo.org/keyboard/latinime/-/blob/master/LICE...

by yencabulator

3/3/2026 at 11:17:04 PM

>You may distribute the software or any part of its source code only if you do so free of charge for non-commercial purposes.

Semantic arguments over what "FOSS" means aside, for most people, calling it "not FOSS" probably makes them more confused than if you just said "it's FOSS", even if the latter might not be technically correct.

by gruez

3/5/2026 at 3:03:39 AM

It's not just a technicality. FUTO not being FOSS means that the community cannot fork and maintain the keyboard in case of a rug pull. In addition, not being FOSS means that FUTO is not on fdroid, and requires a payment on other stores.

by haskman

3/5/2026 at 1:45:09 PM

>FUTO not being FOSS means that the community cannot fork and maintain the keyboard in case of a rug pull

But they can? It literally says anyone can do it as long as it's non-commercial.

>not being FOSS means that FUTO [...] requires a payment on other stores.

What are you talking about? It's free on google play.

by gruez

3/5/2026 at 3:26:33 PM

> FUTO not being FOSS means that the community cannot fork and maintain the keyboard in case of a rug pull

> But they can? It literally says anyone can do it as long as it's non-commercial.

Commercial use doesn't only mean payment. If you modify FUTO, you can't use it at work for example.

In addition, FUTO License says this -

"Notwithstanding the above, you may not remove or obscure any functionality in the software related to payment to the Licensor in any copy you distribute to others. You may not alter, remove, or obscure any licensing, copyright, or other notices of the Licensor in the software. Any use of the Licensor’s trademarks is subject to applicable law."

> It's free on google play.

You are right. I had confused it with the donation link.

by haskman

3/3/2026 at 9:20:47 AM

I have been using GrapheneOS now for 8 month and its been quite a smooth ride. The biggest worry I had was flashing it onto a brand new Pixel phone I had just bought. Everything else works fine though. Currently using 3 (german) banking apps and I haven't had a single issue. Also still using Google apps like camera and maps. Also Gboard as the default GrapheneOS keyboard is a bit uncomfortable. Really nice that you can just remove the network permissions and it works like a charm

by dahateb

3/3/2026 at 6:59:23 AM

Personally I would just love Apple to be forced by governments to open up their hardware by releasing complete documentation of their hardware and allowing to install another os or dual boot. iPhones hardware is really good and would love booting Linux on theses. And then force every services company to provide an API to their services so we have an alternative to their app. I guess Motorola partnering with GrapheneOS will not change anything in this space because contactless payments and some apps will not work and fundamentally because the sales will be way below mainstream brands like Apple/Samsung. Governments need to step up here.

by cocoto

3/3/2026 at 8:34:45 PM

Contactless payments work in Graphene OS. Not with Google Pay, but with other apps like Curve and Paypal.

by fph

3/3/2026 at 8:47:59 AM

There is only one government that might be inclined to do that and thats the EU. But good luck lobbying this.

by mastermage

3/4/2026 at 8:42:35 AM

Not necessarily this, but a legislation mandating long-term (10 years) support for software and security updates could result in Apple offering Linux after they decide they don't want to continue releasing macOS for older hardware.

by cromka

3/3/2026 at 7:17:08 AM

I admire the de-Googled approach of GrapheneOS. As a lawyer, privacy concerns resonate with me too. I love the rebellious attitude of tech that presents an alternative choice in an overly duopolistic market.

That said, I wouldn't last 8.4 months like the author. Even though he admits to some Google app usage, I'm in too deep — I'd never be able to get out. But if I get the chance, I'd like to try it on a secondary phone. Those solid black icons are one reason. They look cool.

by tl2do

3/3/2026 at 8:40:13 AM

my take on this is to some advocates probably shocking. But I think you don't need to perfectly switch and never touch anything google again.

I personally just encourage people to take a look at what you are using, and if you could gradually change some of it. Who knows sometimes alternatives even offer better services. I am not saying never use anything google ever again. Just question your tools regularly and peruse the alternatives.

by mastermage

3/3/2026 at 10:32:01 AM

Graphene supports the 6a, which unlocked goes for ~$100 on ebay. I imagine you can swing that as a lawyer to play around.

I'll also echo the ideas from everyone else here. You can just use it as a normal Android phone the way you do any other and there's still big benefits. There's also really big benefits in terms of carrier privacy that aren't often talked about, like vpn routing and hotspot usage.

by polairscience

3/3/2026 at 7:43:05 AM

Not wanting to discourage you from trying Graphene, but the icons are probably not a good reason. Can always install an alternative launcher and icon pack on stock android.

Running Graphene for a long time now, everything works perfectly fine, but I don't do mobile banking.

by traxler

3/3/2026 at 7:59:32 AM

I do mobile banking and use GrapheneOS daily (2 online banks + 2 trading platforms).

I also work in mobile app/SDK publishing as a business dev and it's critical that I can install my clients' apps (thousand+) in private space.

It works great for me.

by rcMgD2BwE72F

3/3/2026 at 7:25:42 AM

you can use mostly google appsand still benefit (e.g. unlike google android, play services aren't privileged and are sandboxed like any other app) https://grapheneos.org/features#sandboxed-google-play

also you can restrict some apps network permissions, for example i use the google camera app with the network disabled :p

by throawayonthe

3/3/2026 at 8:43:21 AM

I am coming to GrapheneOS from iOS, as recounted in https://blog.majid.info/quit-apple/

My experience with seedvault is not as positive as the OP, it fails for about half my apps. I guess I have another year to fix this when the GrapheneOS enabled Motorola flagship comes out.

I carry both my iPhone 16 Plus and my Pixel 8 Pro, but limit my iPhone use to mobile banking, Apple Pay and Find My.

by fmajid

3/3/2026 at 10:08:49 AM

Seedvault is godawful and I'm saying it as a someone using GOS as a daily driver. Utterly awful.

Two backup runs can give different results (failing in different places or failing to restore everything), and I haven't heard of the one person it works for every time.

I wish I could just run Titanium Backup :(

by subscribed

3/4/2026 at 12:09:24 AM

Log into webapps,

sync files,

new phone set up.

by DANmode

3/3/2026 at 7:05:37 AM

I’ve been using GrapheneOS for a couple of years now, and it’s been perfect for me. Contactless payments used to work fine, but then my bank switched to Google Wallet. Since then, I’ve just kept a physical card tucked behind my phone case so I can use it when needed.

by ZlibraryKO

3/3/2026 at 7:51:17 AM

For all the "My Banking Apps don't work", I'd raise one question:

Do you really need access to banking apps on the go? I get that it can be handy and maybe you legit do, but I'd wager most people don't really do. If you can pay by phone you can pay by card and the card has less potentially to weirdly break.

And if your bank demands a phone app to be used, you can always have a cheap stock android lying around at home. Can't get stolen or lost. Doesn't give big G any data on you, because that phone doesn't have anything but those apps.

But I also understand "just have a second phone" is not a tempting idea for many people. I am not much of a phone person, so I'm not a good case study, but it works fine for me.

by traxler

3/3/2026 at 7:59:48 AM

I cannot speak for every country but in the Netherlands, your banking app also serves as a 2FA instrument if you place orders with your credit card. A pop-up notification will ask you to confirm if you have indeed placed the order. While I will admit that it is possible to predict such use cases and take your phone along, it is becoming a bit difficult to predict what part of some account or service's login flow will require a confirmation with your device.

by pietro72ohboy

3/3/2026 at 8:05:08 AM

Luckily, all/most Dutch bank apps work on GrapheneOS.

(Not saying that you claimed they didn't.)

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 8:08:43 AM

Huh, interesting. I only have those 2FA popups for card payments online or in apps, never for payments in stores.

by traxler

3/4/2026 at 7:02:16 AM

Certainly in the UK you can get the 2fa app popup in store if you tap to pay with your phone rather than a card. It’s analogous to going for a contactless payment with a card and them asking to insert the card and type the pin (which sometimes happens). It’s pretty rare (as in I have done the vast majority[1] of my payments using contactless on a phone for a couple of years now and I think it’s happened once to me).

[1] Like probably 99%+. I scarcely ever have a card on me and never use cash.

by seanhunter

3/3/2026 at 8:40:23 AM

I'm pretty sure that's what your parent is describing.

In my case, I often spend multiple days at my parents' house. Now, I mostly don't order online, but sometimes something comes up and in that kind of situation, most merchants will have me go through the verification.

Since this doesn't happen frequently, I'm more likely than not to not have hauled my secondary phone, especially since I very much prefer traveling light. Now, could most of those occasional purchases not have waited for my return home? Eh... most probably could've. Doesn't make it less annoying, though, for no good reason.

by vladvasiliu

3/3/2026 at 8:39:49 AM

Based on this resource, it seems there's very extensive testing of banking apps on grapheneOS, and the large majority works.

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

by dbdr

3/3/2026 at 9:13:15 AM

Indeed, and based non-extensive, one sample approximate average testing, my own bank works like a charm on GOS.

by lapinot

3/3/2026 at 8:05:07 AM

I've used GrapheneOS for years at this point and all my banking apps work fine. It's just definitely worth a try.

I've had a government app not working once and one of the devs actually showed up on the GrapheneOS forums and now it does.

by sureglymop

3/3/2026 at 11:34:44 AM

In the UK at least, banking apps are how you give people cash when you owe them for dinner, drinks, whatever. It's also needed to authorise online payments. And for travel, location services is often used by the better banks as an alternative to immediately blocking your card every time you go anywhere. Then there are account perks[0] like airport lounges, co-working spaces, exercise classes, etc. that all use the app for access.

It'd be more than just a bit inconvenient to lose all of these things…

Luckily, all of my personal and business banking apps work fine on Graphene. Even the apps for the crusty old "bricks and mortar" banks that I still have backup accounts with.

[0] As an aside, Revolut Ultra in the UK costs less than the FT Digital subscription it includes so if you're an FT subscriber, all the other stuff that comes with the account is cheaper than free.

by barnabee

3/3/2026 at 8:41:46 PM

> And for travel, location services is often used by the better banks as an alternative to immediately blocking your card every time you go anywhere.

I routinely use my (U.S.) credit card abroad and never had issues. I don't have any banking app on my phone, which runs Graphene, because I do not need access to banking on the go. Things such as airport lounges, co-working spaces, exercise classes, may be valuable, but none of these things is more important than my freedom. I do not tolerate the thought that some company may track which services I use and where I go without my consent. I therefore do not use proprietary apps on my phone. If something does not work in the browser (Vanadium), I will do without it.

by drnick1

3/3/2026 at 8:18:56 AM

Some info in case someone is on the fence about this, and are living in the UK. I use Monzo, and that works perfectly on GrapheneOS.

If they ever stopped working, I would just CASS to another bank. A bank that has a posture that something like GrapheneOS is too insecure to use their app on is a bit of a red flag.

by AJRF

3/3/2026 at 8:00:30 AM

Mobile apps are how most people do banking these days, and it shows. In my experience banking apps are a lot more maintained and modern than classic online banking interfaces.

So you're not just sacrificing "on the go" banking, you are likely sacrificing use of the best interface your bank offers.

by Valodim

3/3/2026 at 8:06:55 AM

Also, most smartphones (especially GrapheneOS, iOS, Pixel, etc) are far more secure than desktops/laptops. So also from a security perspective it's better to do banking on a phone.

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 8:16:58 AM

And it’s very hard to actually steal a cellphone since it’s always with you, whereas houses get broken into all the time.

by learingsci

3/3/2026 at 8:32:44 AM

This has to be some fascinating regional difference, because my personal experiences suggest the opposite. Would you be willing to elaborate ( in general terms/locations if too sensitive )?

by iugtmkbdfil834

3/3/2026 at 8:51:18 AM

I wonder if phone theft specifically hasn't (somewhat) gone down now that most are encrypted and tied to some online account by default. Maybe criminals have heard about this, and they focus on other things.

Where I live, people still carry cash (though not absurd amounts) and credit cards, and I understand that's what most pickpockets are after. Especially since, after covid, the limit for contactless payments has increased.

by vladvasiliu

3/3/2026 at 10:55:36 AM

Burglars recently broke into my parents' house and they left the MacBook and iPads. Most informed thieves probably know that they are bound to an account, can easily be blocked, and there is no use trying to sell them.

I would assume its more and more the case with phones as well. ~10-15 years ago I heard often about smartphones getting stolen out of people's pockets, etc. Not so much anymore.

Non-Apple laptops is probably a different game.

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 9:37:28 AM

True but you can also argue the opposite since its a lot easier to loose it and more exposed to more people that could be thieves.

by akimbostrawman

3/3/2026 at 9:49:12 AM

Unless you use Qubes OS (which I do).

by fsflover

3/3/2026 at 10:59:07 AM

Maybe, but this is irrelevant to 99.99% of bank users out there.

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 11:43:38 AM

It means that banks cannot say "desktop is insecure, therefore a mobile app is required for your security". I can manage my own security in a better way.

by fsflover

3/3/2026 at 8:48:32 AM

I don't have the same experience. My main bank is a huge European bank, and their app is laughably bad. You have to jump to an impressive number of screens to reach anything other than "last / upcoming transactions" lists. Many are actually just janky webviews, yet they still somehow manage to work worse than their website. Bonus points for it being "temporarily under maintenance" seemingly every other day.

I should note that the website is pretty janky itself, but at least it works fine (meaning "not worse") on Firefox on Linux, and it doesn't even pester me to change browsers or anything.

I also have an account with one of those new "online" banks for when I travel, since they have better exchange rates, and, importantly, no conversion tax. Their app is somewhat better, but they have no website whatsoever, AFAIK. But, at least, they allow me to set up a proper password instead of clicking on 6 digits as the other bank.

by vladvasiliu

3/3/2026 at 9:14:14 AM

Is the UI really that important though? I assume most people use internet/app banking mainly to do two things: make payments, and look at transactions. I also assume most people don't do these things very often. Sure, a good UI is nice to have, but it isn't going to affect my life much if it's missing.

by jbstack

3/3/2026 at 8:32:24 AM

Sadly true, while not being a phone person, I have started using my home banking phone for tasks I used to do on my desktop. Still never leaves my office.

by traxler

3/3/2026 at 8:06:53 AM

> Do you really need access to banking apps on the go?

Not strictly, no, but it's useful to be able to relatively-quickly check my balances (and possibly shuffle funds around between checking/savings and my credit-union-issued credit card). I could use my credit union's website for that, but it's faster to open the app and scan my thumb.

Thankfully, my credit union's app has no issues with GrapheneOS, aside from needing to enable “exploit protection compatibility mode” to keep it from crashing on startup.

by yellowapple

3/3/2026 at 8:39:10 AM

I've never used a banking app on my phone, and I have no desire to. It's the least secure device I own (in spite of running Graphene). It's the most likely device to get lost or stolen.

I currently have accounts with 3 different banks in Belgium. They all offer an app which I ignore. Online banking works just fine, heck, better than fine, it's excellent. One bank uses auth derived from my debit card (which I have to insert into a card reader to sign transactions). The other two use hardware tokens. The hardware token for my business account has a built in camera which scans QR codes displayed by the website. When signing a payment, I scan the code and the token asks "Confirm payment of 123eur to XYZ?".

It's plenty convenient for my needs.

by elric

3/3/2026 at 9:10:17 AM

That's fine when you're lucky enough to be able to avoid a banking app, but for many banks its essentially compulsory. I can't login to internet banking without entering a 2FA code from the app. I'm even forced to have my Android settings a certain way, otherwise the app detects that my phone is "insecure" and refuses to run.

by jbstack

3/3/2026 at 8:45:34 PM

> for many banks its essentially compulsory.

I would look for a new bank.

by drnick1

3/3/2026 at 8:05:24 AM

I need my main one for paying friends back and for authorising payments online. Luckily it works without google. The only real app I miss is Uber

by dwedge

3/3/2026 at 8:31:50 AM

> Do you really need access to banking apps on the go?

Yes, I do.

by HunOL

3/3/2026 at 8:45:07 AM

I'm considering using a second phone for increased security. As you say, only put banking apps on them, leave it at home.

The larger population is getting pushed towards banking on the phone, and on top of that, many people don't own a PC/Laptop anymore.

by dachris

3/3/2026 at 8:22:11 AM

Same here - all the German banks I know of the phone app is mostly for 2FA, but you can also use it for banking, if you like.

In my case it's also the 2FA for credit card usage (as I have the visa/mc via my bank), not only bank transfers.

by wink

3/3/2026 at 8:41:42 AM

> If you can pay by phone you can pay by card and the card has less potentially to weirdly break.

Paying by card in 2026 is akin to sending physical letters.

by anal_reactor

3/3/2026 at 8:50:31 AM

Really? I guess my neck of the woods is more backwater than I thought. While paying by phone is by no means rare, paying by card is very common.

by traxler

3/3/2026 at 8:33:53 AM

In Sweden you use BankID to authenticate to websites and it's almost a requirement nowadays.

Luckily it works well on GrapheneOS though.

by lawn

3/3/2026 at 8:11:36 AM

yes. I pay with bank transfer on regular basis. Merchant generates a QR code, I scan it with my banking app and I pay him.

by karlosvomacka

3/3/2026 at 3:44:14 PM

USAA works. They detect there is not attestation and warn you, but give you the option to continue.

by slumberlust

3/3/2026 at 8:33:30 AM

Sorry but thats a statement thats just willfully ignorant. Yes people need to have access to their financials when under way. That can range for PushTans, CreditCard Confirmations, to checking their budgets, moving something from one account to another, topping up your Prepaid Card. Or just being able to Pay with a Card on your Phone when you forgot your Wallet.

Sure you could say I do not go out and do not need that but realistically this is just how the world works now.

by mastermage

3/3/2026 at 8:38:20 AM

I very purposefully added both the "and maybe you legit do" and the fact that I'm a bad case study.

by traxler

3/3/2026 at 4:04:16 PM

Sorry if i may have formulated this a bit harshly. I may have replied to your comment becaause it was far up and its a common argument. Often made in bad faith.

by mastermage

3/3/2026 at 8:46:42 PM

How about using cash for all of this? This has the added benefit of not enabling tracking by financial institutions in addition to tracking by Google, the phone OEM, and possibly other third parties.

by drnick1

3/3/2026 at 8:39:11 AM

But you can do all those things via a browser.

by amelius

3/3/2026 at 3:08:49 PM

That's demonstrably false.

You don't get TANs in the browser, can't tap "approve" on the application-only notification, can't pay with the banking app (for those banks which offer it) without the banking app.

...and willfully ignorant given that some banks are mobile (app) only.

by subscribed

3/3/2026 at 9:28:56 AM

You can pay with a card on your phone? I mean, sure, if you are buying something online. Not with contactless I think

by ranguna

3/3/2026 at 9:37:20 AM

You can do all things with a browser and a card, yes.

I'm assuming that most people will carry the card with them anyway.

by amelius

3/4/2026 at 9:50:02 AM

Sure, if you are ok walking around with a card. I've been "walletless" for the past 6 years or so, and I don't want to go back.

Leaving and coming back home and only have to mentally track one object that I can't forget is great. If it breaks, I'll temporarily use cards or physical money until I get a new phone and install everything again.

"Use a card" is not really a good alternative for those that prefer not to use them. Sure it works for you, but not everyone has your preferences of walking around with a wallet.

by ranguna

3/3/2026 at 8:31:10 AM

Some people will suffer some inconvenience for something that they think is worth it and some people will do everything to no do anything because it is too much trouble. Sometimes they are the same people but in regards to different areas. For example I would never grow my own carrots. What for? I can buy them. And my wife would never built self hosted media server. Why spend 5k$ on PC when you can just buy Netflix?

And there is 3 kind of people that do one of the above and go around in real life and online and tries to convince everyone that THE THING that they are doing is THE ONLY, TRUE SOLUTION. Like vegans or cyclists.

In reality none of this is true. If Graphene OS would tomorrow became, magically the only mobile OS in existence they would became next evil tech company in few years. Because power corrupts.

by npodbielski

3/3/2026 at 8:35:12 AM

I have troubles discerning how this answer connects to my post.

Are you putting me in the third kind of people?

by traxler

3/5/2026 at 11:38:15 AM

My intention was rather to discuss why you even attempt that kind of discussion. I mean if someone is so glued to their banking app let them have it.

But I see I already was down voted. So yeah...

by npodbielski

3/3/2026 at 7:00:48 AM

I wish i could switch but bank apps and contactless payments keep me on stock pixel.

by Rnonymous

3/3/2026 at 7:30:07 AM

so use a card? there is always something. breaking free is never going to be without ANY inconveniences, it's how they build their moat after all. okay so once those two work, one goes to the next thing on the list; "I wish I could switch but I can't use gboard on it and the swiping is 0.5% better than the stock keyboard so it's unusable to me"

(you can use gboard, that was just an example - but it's always these small inconveniences, just like in the chrome vs firefox threads)

by bergheim

3/3/2026 at 9:11:36 AM

I use 5 different banking apps and 3 other financial/investment apps and they all work fine, you should check compatibility with yours [1]. And to be precise, contactless payments work but not through Google Pay - I've heard that Curve is a viable alternative, and some banks might have their own systems that aren't based on Google Pay (though most seem to be).

[1] https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

by dns_snek

3/3/2026 at 7:07:43 AM

Is this a European thing? Why not use a credit card?

by unethical_ban

3/3/2026 at 8:18:28 AM

In Europe contactless payment is nearly everywhere - nearly every store supports it. Even in Germany (which is historically very pro-cash), since Covid more and more people pay with card and many of whom pay contactless.

In the EU we have some rules that even contactless payments with card sometimes, but not always, need to have some kind of additional authentication in the form of entering your PIN. Contactless payment methods via phone or watch don't have this need because they already have their own authentication methods. That's why so many people pay with their phone or watch. Its just more convenient and always contactless. (no PIN needed)

How is it in the US? Are things like Apple Pay still limited to certain stores?

by chrizel

3/3/2026 at 8:36:44 AM

I live in Europe, I experienced many people paying with the phone/watches, it was never faster than tapping the bank card. Anyway PIN is required only for purchases over 20EUR.

by Markoff

3/3/2026 at 8:49:55 AM

Not really. Outside of Walmart and maybe a smaller store ran by an older mom and pop shop, you can use NFC payments practically anywhere even at a drive thru. Only reason I still have my wallet is mainly for drivers license, but even that’s on the horizon.

by Flameancer

3/4/2026 at 3:37:52 PM

I like having cash for tipping and dining, particularly bars where closing out can take a long time and I don't deal with coins. I also keep a copy of my emergency 2FA backup for my password safe in case my phone breaks or gets lost when I'm traveling.

by unethical_ban

3/4/2026 at 12:38:19 AM

Apple pay is supported in a lot of places, but it depends on the point of sales system. Contactless cards are nearly universal, but some gas stations require chip.

We do not use pins with credit cards here, so that isn't a distinguishing feature of phone pay.

by unethical_ban

3/3/2026 at 7:58:59 AM

In Europe? Debit cards. Hardly anyone uses a credit card in a supermarket.

If I'm going out I'll have both a debit card and cash in my wallet. Given that large scale outages of payment networks are no longer theoretical but to be expected, not carrying cash is just silly. Since I have a wallet in any case, I see no point in using contactless payments on a smartphone — I usually don't take it with me when getting groceries.

I have no idea if I can even do contactless phone payments on GrapheneOS, but since everything else works (including my bank's app), I don't care.

by Freak_NL

3/3/2026 at 8:33:50 AM

> In Europe? Debit cards. Hardly anyone uses a credit card in a supermarket.

Such sweeping statements are impossible for "Europe". It's a big place. Plenty of people use credit cards in supermarkets. But it's orthogonal to the discussion. A creditcard can be contactless or on a phone. Or on a watch.

by elric

3/3/2026 at 8:41:04 AM

Of course it is a big place. It is also a big place where credit cards just aren't a thing for most people:

https://n26.com/en-eu/blog/taboo-of-credit

That article lists some reasons why using a credit card doesn't make sense in most European countries. It's not a way to build up your credit score for one. As a Dutchman, the only way I can lower my credit score is by taking on debts (with the exception of a mortgage).

The US is a big place too. I am fairly comfortable in making the sweeping statement that credit cards are a thing used by many people there.

by Freak_NL

3/3/2026 at 8:51:07 AM

> It is also a big place where credit cards just aren't a thing for most people

Nonsense. It's hard to find actual statistics on the number of credit cards, but it's obvious that the Netherlands are an outlier, with a paltry 0.02 credit cards per capita, vs Luxemburg's 3.98 (wtf). If I filter out the non-EU countries from the dataset below, I end up with 0.5 credit cards per capita. That's nowhere near "not a thing for most people". They're just "not a thing" in NL. Big difference.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1395502/credit-cards-in-...

by elric

3/3/2026 at 9:28:45 AM

If 25 people have 4 credit cards each and 75 people have none, then we have 1 card/capita, but only 25% of the population uses credit cards.

The median seems to be 0.25 cards/capita. Your own source already ~agrees that they're "not a thing for most people" (if we're really pedantic we can start looking at populations of those countries), but to find a more realistic estimate for the percentage of the population who use credit cards we would have to divide this figure by the average number of credit cards among people who have at least one.

by dns_snek

3/3/2026 at 7:17:29 AM

I think it's healthy for a population to not have as part of day-to-day life to pay with credit, effectively paying with money you might not actually have, going into debt. How many US citizens are crippled by credit card debt, and the interest on it?

by oerdier

3/3/2026 at 7:32:01 AM

You can pay with credit card as a convenience + fraud protection mechanism without ever paying interest by just paying your bill off every month.

When chip and pin was first rolled out, Europeans were shocked by the low security of swipe cards in the US. The reason that wasn’t an issue for Americans was (and still is) that credit cards have excellent fraud protections.

If someone steals my credit card, it is the bank’s problem, not mine.

The risk of paying by debit card on a regular basis is unfathomable to me, even with fancy tech to try to make it secure.

by n8cpdx

3/3/2026 at 7:54:22 AM

I wasn't suggesting individuals shouldn't be able to pay with credit. I have a credit card myself, which I use when I can't pay with debit. I was suggesting that for a population as a whole, having paying with credit being so commonplace leads to crippling debt issues, which as far as I can believe "the reports", is an issue in the US.

Your comment on the risk of paying with debit cards surprised me. I've never considered it a risk at all. It made me realize that perhaps here (in the Netherlands) we have consumer protection systems in place, in addition to the payment systems, that prevent any issues.

by oerdier

3/4/2026 at 12:02:33 AM

> + fraud protection mechanism

This is an Americanism, my European debit card had consumer protection clauses pretty much on par with credit cards.

by yencabulator

3/4/2026 at 12:39:39 AM

True. In the US the ability to get money back from fraud is easier for credit card than debit, at least it was a decade ago. Things may have changed.

by unethical_ban

3/3/2026 at 7:32:09 AM

You also get contactless payment on debit cards.

by FireInsight

3/3/2026 at 7:36:51 AM

It's not about credit/debit, it's about phone/card. Americans tend to use "credit card" as a generic term for payment cards.

And yes, phone NFC payment is one of those technically unnecessary conveniences that's really easy to get used to. You probably already have your phone out or at least accessible in like one second, paying with it instead of pulling out your wallet and finding a card or even cash is just sooo nice. I hate that I've gotten this used to it.

That being said, you can still get NFC payment on a rooted or reflashed phone. Instead of Google Wallet, find a bank or card provider that has their own app. I use the Curve "proxy card" and it works fine.

by franga2000

3/3/2026 at 8:12:56 AM

In my case sliding my card out of my wallet is faster than unlocking my phone given the lack of consistency of the fingerprint reader of my google pixel when using my smartphone case (and I am too clumsy to use a smartphone without a case covering both sides, broke too many screenw already). Some people just leave the card on their smartphone case too.

I also see a lot of people struggling because they need to pay while being on a call or because their smartphone is just way too big to be handled comfortably with one hand given the size of their hands.

by prmoustache

3/3/2026 at 8:10:58 AM

Using debit or credit cards is unrelated to the UX. Both are available with google wallet or physically.

by prmoustache

3/3/2026 at 4:11:33 PM

Very different risks.

Physical CC can be used by anyone holding it or actually just standing close.

Contactless payment with phone only after the phone is unlocked().

Physical card contactless payments have a limit (don't remember it) after which you have to use it with pin. At least all mine. Boring. Payments with apple/hoogle/Garmin have higher transaction limit.

I could probably go on longer but these are for me.

() I know it can be done without, but it also can be done with.

by subscribed

3/3/2026 at 6:44:50 AM

TBH What I wanted from the world is AOSP distribution. Built similarly to GrapheneOS in terms of distribution, ease of install. But I just don't feel I need all these privacy enhancements and stuff, I'm perfectly fine with ordinary system compiled from Google sources with proper update schedule. Also I don't want to see anything installed out of the box, except maybe single app to install AOSP apps, F-Droid, Play Store, just APK from the given URL. So basically almost empty mobile OS which user fully customizes, no predefined choices, no custom patches.

by vbezhenar

3/3/2026 at 7:28:47 AM

tbh it sounds like you do want grapheneos :p

it's very minimal ootb and has a better update schedule than 95% of oems (alas)

you can install google play store & services from the app store, and pretty much everything will just work as you might imagine

by throawayonthe

3/3/2026 at 8:09:44 AM

it's very minimal ootb and has a better update schedule than 95% of oems (alas)

Any OEM right? Google is the fastest OEM with Pixel and GrapheneOS often rolls out patches earlier than Google (not bound by a monthly schedule + they do embargoed patches when you use the right branch).

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 8:07:21 AM

Same here. I've been trying to find a "plain Android" phone but everything seems heavily customised UI by the manufacturers now.

I just found out today I can't call anymore due to 3G ending in my city

I'm keen for a Motorola Graphene and then just install Google services anyway. For me the value is being freed from manufacturers UI and software

by ryncewynd

3/3/2026 at 6:47:28 AM

So what is wrong with lineage in this case?

by riedel

3/3/2026 at 6:52:14 AM

I know very little about lineageos. Their website contains very few docs, so I don't really understand what's this project is about. They don't mention Pixel 10, so I guess it's not supported.

GrapheneOS website in comparison contains a lot of things to read, so after a hour of thorough reading I had good impression what GrapheneOS is.

by vbezhenar

3/3/2026 at 8:00:19 AM

Are the websites really that different? (i use iphone) I checked both homepages and impression I got is that Lineage is android that focuses on long term support (the name points that out) and Graphene is not android (ok?) and it's focused on security.

Your Pixel 10 is not in Lineage devices so i would also assume it's not supported. (maybe it's too new?)

by omnimus

3/3/2026 at 8:22:42 AM

Yes, as I understand it lineageos is focused on supporting phones AFTER the mamufacturer stops supporting them - a pixel 10 is still supported afaik.

by kennywinker

3/3/2026 at 9:00:03 AM

LineageOS was one of the OG de-googled Android ROMs, renamed a few years after Android Jellybean IIRC.

This new glass UI and the Face ID kind of not working anymore since upgrading my iPhone, I think I’ll be going back to Android

by alfiedotwtf

3/3/2026 at 6:49:56 PM

> LineageOS was one of the OG de-googled Android ROMs, renamed a few years after Android Jellybean IIRC.

Existing since 2009 as CyanogenMod and since 2016 as LineageOS, that would have been around the time where Android 7 (Nougat) was current.

PS: Not that we are in any way degoogled, other than what we are forced to by the license.

by timschumi

3/3/2026 at 7:17:18 PM

Thanks Tim… my memory is fuzzy - that was a lot of phones ago.

… and thank you for your continued effort! I have very big love for CyanogenMod/LineageOS, and that’s coming from a heavy pre-XDA user (I’ve had them all - PalmOS, Zaraus, XDA o2, Maemo, FirefoxOS, Ubuntu phone user).

by alfiedotwtf

3/4/2026 at 12:07:35 AM

>Google Messages - for most of the last 8 months RCS was broken on GrapheneOS, but it's back now and Google messages is still the only option for messaging with family members on iOS.

I'm glad to hear that's finally fixed. That was my only pain point with GrapheneOS, but it got so bad I bought an iPhone when the 17's came out.

If the deal with Motorola helps GrapheneOS get better integration with the carriers, get a heads up about RCS changes ahead of time, get help fixing it, I'd happily switch back. I loved using GrapheneOS and iOS frustrates me daily.

by samhclark

3/3/2026 at 7:50:07 AM

While this is good news, the cynical in me is waiting for Motorola GrapheneOS, with the changes that make it actually relevant for normies, and then the whole idea goes the way of netbooks.

by pjmlp

3/3/2026 at 8:12:01 AM

GrapheneOS had an estimated 400,000 users three months ago (based on update downloads) and the user base seems to be growing quite fast. I think for Motorola, potentially a few million users buying flagships for GrapheneOS are a very attractive market. So, I'm not cynical.

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 9:45:22 AM

GrapheneOS OOTB experience and feature set make any other phone feel cheap even iphones.

0 ads, 0 bloat, 0 unknown connections with maximum security.

by akimbostrawman

3/3/2026 at 8:19:25 AM

I run a degoogled Samsung, keep all my banking apps in a work profile. Ive been seeing a lot of people have issues with Graphene and banking apps, but wouldn't the work profile function on there too? Could you install the Google Play Services on the work profile and run it separately to your main phone?

by barcodehorse

3/3/2026 at 8:34:37 AM

I personally would not put work profile on a phone intended for privacy. In other words, you likely can, but the question quickly becomes: why would you want to? It undermines its purpose.

by iugtmkbdfil834

3/3/2026 at 6:40:34 AM

I’ve tried but: couldn’t get my card to work on wallet. Can’t verify.

Uber couldn’t verify payment so I couldn’t take a ride when needed.

by skeptic_ai

3/3/2026 at 7:02:07 AM

Wallet was one of the reasons I abandoned my well working lineageOS phone on a redmi note 10 as it was a cat and mouse game over month. I feel as long as a vendor does not support an os and Google is so hostile against modifications, it is not a good feeling that they can pull the rug at any time. I was multiple times in the situation when I wanted to pay with the phone and was in the end rejected. I think we need to take NFC wallets and esims away from phone/os vendors again. A seperate NFC enabled vendor independent trusted platform would be IMHO the way to go. Especially with ID wallets and universal bank wallets on the way in Europe. This that they cannot use security as a killer argument to keep us in their walled gardens. I know the solution is cards or a second phone, but affordance counts.

by riedel

3/3/2026 at 6:43:56 AM

Contactless payments are often a problem, but adding a card for Uber (directly in the app) should work. I use it frequently, along with Grab, Bolt, Maxim, etc.

by rudhdb773b

3/3/2026 at 8:16:02 AM

I think the second problem is unrelated to the smartphone OS. You can use Uber using only the website, a smartphone is not even needed to use it.

by prmoustache

3/3/2026 at 9:52:15 AM

Well I’m a tech person and I’d never think of using the browser. But thanks

by skeptic_ai

3/3/2026 at 2:50:55 PM

I am a tech person and I like to control the web traffic I send on the internet and which code or at least their source I execute on my computer.

Mobile apps are mostly black boxes in that regard.

by prmoustache

3/3/2026 at 6:57:48 AM

It's googles fault that cards can't work in graphene.

Google needs to whitelist graphene basically to work in the wallet app.

On that note, given that graphene is focused around security and privacy, perhaps not givng your payment data to google is probably a good thing

by foxes

3/3/2026 at 9:52:41 AM

Can’t use my phone to pay becomes kind of useless

by skeptic_ai

3/3/2026 at 6:59:25 AM

Strange, i'm using Uber regularly with GrapheneOS.

by bestouff

3/3/2026 at 10:51:21 AM

I wanted GrapheneOS to deliver on its promises so bad, it sounds so good on paper. And I should be the ideal user, a technical guy whose quality of life is directly impacted by a lack of privacy/security, highly motivated to use it correctly. But the reality is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Just leave your phone at home, this is a toy for privacy enthusiasts. A well intentioned but fruitless hobby.

by milan777love

3/3/2026 at 11:01:11 AM

You made an account just to attack GrapheneOS without even providing any arguments why it is supposedly a toy?

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 11:20:06 AM

I used it for a few months after buying a Nitrophone but it was pwned with the same ease as regular Android, in days. So I just use it as a regular Pixel 8a now. Wish I went for Qubes instead maybe then I would've had more luck.

by milan777love

3/3/2026 at 6:37:00 AM

good writeup. I've been meaning to set this up for myself too. I keep uninstalling apps from my phone every other day because if I use something very little, I am afraid the app is collecting data from my usage in some way or the other.

I have a fairly new ish Pixel phone, do you think I'll be able to go back if I don't like it?

by sankalpmukim

3/3/2026 at 6:51:07 AM

I have a fairly new ish Pixel phone, do you think I'll be able to go back if I don't like it?

Yeah, it is very easy, it's described here:

https://grapheneos.org/install/web#replacing-grapheneos-with...

Similar to GrapheneOS, Google also has a web installer (linked from the above section). Just in case you didn't know - both installing GrapheneOS and recovering the stock OS will remove all data as well.

by microtonal

3/3/2026 at 6:42:11 AM

Yes, it's super simple to install GrapheneOS and to revert to the factory OS on Google Pixels. It is done from Chrome browser with phone connected via USB cable, no need to install anything. Of course when you'll switch, you'll lose all data on your phone, basically like factory reset (but esims survive I think).

by vbezhenar

3/3/2026 at 7:09:18 AM

eSIMs survive the grapheneOS install…

Because when I had set it up, grapheneOS itself couldn’t install or set one up unless it was previously installed under the old OS.

So I had to set up my carrier and then install grapheneOS.

It can install eSIMs on its own now so this doesn’t matter other than confirming the eSIM carries over.

I’ve never reverted to stock android and I’m never looking back so idk if the eSIM survives the round trip.

by razingeden

3/3/2026 at 8:47:04 AM

You can switch back to the stock OS if GrapheneOS doesn't work out for you. Just be aware that the process might take some time and effort, so be ready to tinker a bit.

by hrmtst93837

3/3/2026 at 7:34:20 AM

Both install and reversion to stock OS are incredibly easy. Just back up first.

by n8cpdx

3/3/2026 at 6:26:10 AM

2027 will be the year of the Graphene phone.

by drnick1

3/3/2026 at 6:21:31 AM

[dead]

by shablulman