All my Deutschlandtickets gone: Fraud at an industrial scale [video]

1/1/2026 at 8:25:57 PM

Germany has missed the digitalisation train, but how long will it continue to miss it for?

At least, transparent issues like this one can only help.

by jiehong

1/1/2026 at 9:21:16 PM

The problem is the lack of centralization - there should obviously only be one issuer of this ticket and thus just only one website / app to keep bug free.

by chvid

1/1/2026 at 10:02:15 PM

Lack of centralization is one part of it (see also: communal digital services), yes, but the complete lack of standards and guidelines is also a massive issue. I tried buying a Deutschlandticket from the DB Navigator app a while back, and immediately ran into some issues:

- they only take credit card, probably because of the massive SEPA fraud they've had happen

- they require id verification with a third party(!), which then only supports the e-perso(!!) or video ident(!!!), which they could've just used the actual PostIdent service for, which would've provided an alternative for non-smartphone-havers / people who'd rather not have their ID and face recorded by some Eastern European company until the end of time

- their entire authentication system was down when it came to actually purchasing

buying from my local Verkehrsverbund was a single tap in their app instead, with no id verification whatsoever. If DB's offering were the only option it would be an absolute travesty.

by lachiflippi

1/2/2026 at 6:23:19 AM

Isn’t that one of the problems mentioned in the video? Being able to buy and get the ticket before the payment is fully validated?

(Or did your local Verkehrsverbund require you to use another payment for the initial purchase other than bank transfer?)

by chvid

1/1/2026 at 10:35:31 PM

Hetzner does this invasive ID flow for credit cards now. Fortunately they don't bother with PayPal.

by kevin_thibedeau

1/1/2026 at 10:41:47 PM

Airbnb wanted access to my bank account transaction details (via Plaid) a while ago, "to verify my credit card". Hotels have never looked so appealing.

by lxgr

1/1/2026 at 11:45:56 PM

At some point booking.com decided it doesn't want to accept my money because I'm a fraud, apparently, so I use it to search and then book directly at the hotel, and booking.com doesn't get their commission.

by immibis

1/2/2026 at 2:58:38 AM

As German speaking person, we can be glad it’s not a fax ticket.

by BonoboIO

1/1/2026 at 11:47:42 PM

Is there a similar ticket, flat for 50 Dollar per month, that takes you through the US? I wonder who pays for the real cost of the ticket, who cleans and repairs the trains, who invests in infrastructure and all that. I always wonder how the germans can pull this off for 50 Euro. Magic.

by okr

1/2/2026 at 4:44:04 AM

> I wonder who pays for the real cost of the ticket

Everybody already has local regional tickets anyway. And most people can't be in more then one place at the time anyway. And most people stay in the same region most of the time anyway.

So really you are not losing much compared to having separate local region tickets in a system where the long distance trains are separated.

> who cleans and repairs the trains

The already existing organizations that have run the trains for a long time.

> who invests in infrastructure and all that

The government ...

> I always wonder how the germans can pull this off for 50 Euro. Magic.

Its not magic its just a transportation policy and taxes.

by panick21_

1/2/2026 at 7:15:57 AM

Not sure I understand your point about

Everybody already has local regional tickets anyway. And most people can't be in more then one place at the time anyway. And most people stay in the same region most of the time anyway.

I live in Rostock. So if I want to go to Berlin or Hamburg (you know, where stuff like actual airports are) I am crossing "regional borders" even if it is a 200-250 km trip to each city

by Pamar

1/2/2026 at 12:15:53 AM

Continental USA: 8 million square kilometer.

Germany: 0.35 million square kilometer.

On the point of the upkeep, locals know German trains are now legendary for unpunctuality and cancellations, so maybe it's not working. But the answer is obviously (trigger warning for the libertarians...) taxes.

The ticket came about because energy prices went crazy after their energy dealer Putin went crazy and warry, I think it was an attempt to motivate people to take public transport rather than have them moan about fuel prices going way way up...

by netsharc

1/2/2026 at 12:32:10 AM

fyi regional trains (which the deutschlandticket is valid for) are very punctual, it is the long distance/ICE trains that are always late/broken, and you cannot ride those with thw deutschlandticket anyways.

by fxwin

1/2/2026 at 7:30:18 AM

Are you crazy? I use local trains daily and they are everything, but punctual. Also, S-Bahn? Worst service ever.

by mdavid626

1/2/2026 at 12:47:04 AM

no they are not. source: i am german and i use regional trains occasionally

by bajinga

1/2/2026 at 4:33:53 AM

Most local and S-Bahn trains in Germany are pretty decent, data is pretty clear on this. Its not Swiss level but still pretty good. Nothing compare to ICE.

by panick21_

1/2/2026 at 6:12:39 AM

not sure what you count RB/RE as, but they are absolutely broken as well in my experience.

by ngruhn

1/2/2026 at 7:11:03 AM

[dead]

by black_13

1/1/2026 at 10:18:22 PM

Uh, I received a call from my credit card company saying that train tickets were bought using my card in Germany. I told them I haven't been in Germany for the last decade, and was issued a new card.

by WalterBright

1/2/2026 at 1:06:47 AM

So at least your credit card issuer (presumably) actually has a working fraud department.

In the private sector, fraud detection is often heuristic based. So this was probably flagged because you didn't buy German railway tickets in the recent past and maybe even you didn't buy anything else in or near Germany.

I remember years ago getting a decline on a credit card transaction to pay for one of my ISPs, and then hours later a phone call. My bank apparently didn't understand (yet, this is years ago) that ISPs are like, not necessarily physically nearby and so since the ISP is on another continent and I had no other nearby transactions it was flagged as likely fraud.

by tialaramex

1/1/2026 at 8:40:09 PM

tl;dw please?

by lysace

1/2/2026 at 3:06:02 AM

There's a summary directly below the video (though its not a very good summary). Basically, it's easily to generate valid tickets with fake bank credentials, which then get canceled later (but after already being resold).

by aqme28

1/1/2026 at 9:23:54 PM

"Transcript" it's called :)

by nottorp

1/2/2026 at 3:04:26 AM

That's... a totally different thing. There is actually a summary though below the video.

by aqme28

1/1/2026 at 9:26:14 PM

ChatGPT managed the following given the submitted source URL and the prompt "summarize the key technical facts into two sentences suitable for a hacker news comment".

Deutschlandticket fraud stemmed from decentralization and weak controls: tickets were issued instantly on unverified SEPA debits, and a leaked or mismanaged signing key let attackers mint valid tickets at scale. Poor revocation and fragmented verification meant many fraudulent tickets still scanned as valid, enabling mass resale and huge losses.

by lysace

1/1/2026 at 9:45:35 PM

This is a good concise summary, regardless of provenance.

by akrauss

1/1/2026 at 10:39:28 PM

Instead of making a fuss, have you considered taking another look at the video page? It includes a summary that helps show why those technical facts are actually relevant in the context of German society, and hints at how those things came to happen. I would normally not bother with a comment, but this time I'm genuinely curious as to how someone might have missed scrolling down to see the summary.

(edit: the fussy bit, where the poster complains about downvotes, has been edited out. I'm leaving my comment the way it is.)

by striking

1/2/2026 at 12:58:08 AM

[flagged]

by lysace

1/2/2026 at 1:49:37 AM

But it's not nice (socially normal?) to post "tl;dw" either.

It's okay, we disagreed on something. I'll agree to learn something from it if you do. Happy new year.

by striking

1/2/2026 at 4:03:59 AM

It's not nice, and in fact really quite rude, to complain about people trying to make something more accessible. You don't have to be nice and help, but complaining about it is definitely not nice.

by handoflixue

1/2/2026 at 4:29:27 AM

I think that might be a stretch, but I acknowledge I should've been nicer all the same. All the best to you as well.

by striking

1/2/2026 at 1:56:07 AM

[flagged]

by lysace

12/29/2025 at 7:59:34 AM

[flagged]

by leobg

1/1/2026 at 7:44:47 PM

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by dang

1/1/2026 at 11:18:49 PM

Funnily enough it generated the most interesting subthread of this submission.

by vasco

1/1/2026 at 11:36:46 PM

Even if that's true - let's assume that it is - moderation has to go by the expected outcome. In this case the expected outcome is certainly a flamewar.

A bad hand does still win the pot sometimes, but that doesn't make it the right play!

by dang

12/29/2025 at 10:27:05 AM

Kind of proof that privatizing public infrastructure does not work without very tight regulations.

The profits and benefits in infrastructure go towards a state and are long term. A private company cannot increase their stock price on a 100 year goal and a countries GDP growth.

by sschueller

12/29/2025 at 12:03:13 PM

Yep. "Socialist lure" is a very US american perspective and far off the real past of most EU nations. The same budget hawks that drive tax cuts and are hollowing out public institutions were directing the privatization of the Deutschebahn. Thats why its not a single company but over 250 of them, for all the naturally competing segments of that gigantic infrastructure. You know, for maximum free-market efficiency, but somehow, blame is still not privatized.

Id like to know the US position on why socialism is failing their infrastructure, like power grinds.

by throwawayqqq11

1/1/2026 at 8:08:07 PM

Our infrastructure runs on freedom and good ol' American grit! Take for example our beautiful highways. They were built after the war (which, by the way, America WON), by the US Army (the greatest fighting force on Earth), using $100B of 1950s taxpayer money (mostly gasoline taxes). Just plain ol' simple taxation of the public to support social programs built and maintained by the government. Now if that's socialism, call me a socialist, but dang if it didn't work. Not sure why we can't do that anymore, but I try not to think about it too hard. Yeehaw!

by Centigonal

1/1/2026 at 8:42:18 PM

> why socialism is failing their infrastructure

"socialism" is vague and meaningless, yes. But poor regulations are a huge problem in the US. Copying a comment from my notes (I didn't write it):

The year is 2010. The Los Angeles Department of Water & Power (LADWP) publishes its initial environmental study [1] on a large power infrastructure maintenance project. A portion of the project involves replacing about 200 wooden power poles that run through Pacific Palisades. The California State Lands Commission reviewed [2] the initial study and requested that LADWP provide a Native American Ground Monitor [3] during any digging to ensure that cultural resources are not inadvertently damaged or destroyed. By the final EIR [2] in 2016 LADWP decided that replacing all of those +70 year old power poles was no longer necessary.

The year is 2018. The Camp Fire ignites in northern California. Its cause was the failure of a 100 year old power line. By early 2019 LADWP decides to replace [4] those 70 year old powerlines running through Pacific Palisades, they're in a now deemed high fire threat area. The California Public Utilities Commission has recommended they be replaced as soon as possible. Work is to start in 2019.

July 7th, 2019. LADWP has started work to replace the power lines, as well as leveling and grading new fire roads. Amateur botanist and avid hiker David Pluenneke is hiking in the area. David is a member of the California Native Plant Society [5]. He sees that LADWP has trampled the endangered Braunton’s milkvetch. In all, 183 milkvetches [6] were murdered.

As a result:

- All newly constructed fire roads must be unconstructed and returned to their original condition.

- Any work must be supervised by an on site project biologist, or biologists if the worksite is large. These observers will make daily surveys of sensitive wildlife species and they have the authority to stop any work that could result in their harm.

- LADWP agrees to excavate the new powerline poles by hand, with shovels. Workers will walk to the site. Helicopters will bring in the new poles and remove the old.

- No construction activities that generate noise above 60 dBA (loudness of an average conversation) may take place during bird nesting season, which runs from mid February to mid September. Of course this requires another observer biologist, a bird biologist, to verify.

Checking Google Street View, as of August 2023 these poles were not replaced. [7] But overall there are 300,000+ [8] power poles in LA. As of 2019, 65% of them were older than the average lifespan of 50 years old. In 2024, LADWP replaced just 2743 poles. [9] Their average cost to replace a pole in the same year was $69,300. [10] At their 2024 rates it will take LADWP over 70 years and $14 billion to replace all past lifespan poles.

[1] https://www.ladwp.com/sites/default/files/documents/AppA_SGR...

[2] https://www.ladwp.com/sites/default/files/documents/SGRS_Fin...

[3] https://farwestern.com/monitoring/

[4] https://www.ladwpnews.com/ladwp-statement-on-power-pole-repl...

[5] https://www.cnps.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Compressed-D...

[6] https://www.courthousenews.com/la-to-pay-1-9-million-for-uti...

[7] https://earth.google.com/web/search/Temescal+Ridge+Fire+Road...

[8] https://ladwp-jtti.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wp-content/upl...

[9] https://prp.ladwp.com/

[10] https://www.ladwp.com/sites/default/files/2025-09/Rates%20Me...

by veqq

1/1/2026 at 8:35:59 PM

Germany's public transport is really not privatized though. The Deutsche Bahn AG is structured as company, but is entirely owned by the federal government. There's very, very little public transportation (e.g. private buses between major cities) that is not owned and operated by the government.

What privatization are you talking about?

by luckylion

1/1/2026 at 10:05:55 PM

DB is only in its current state (company organization, leadership failures, organizational failures, underfunding for decades, etc) because of previous governments' failed attempts at privatization decades ago. Full actual privatization would not likely have yielded any better results - especially regarding the actual infrastructure itself. (There's enough examples worldwide)

It's also been used for cushy post-politics jobs and lots of other incompetent meddling - such as requiring and extracting profits, etc.

You're right that it's not privatized, but the root causes of current misery still are the privatization attempts and a significant neoliberal/conservative political force that caused decay and blocked progress/improvements.

by k_g_b_

1/1/2026 at 11:58:50 PM

You are contradicting yourself.

On the on hand you claim that a government-run railway company is better off than a privately run (Japan tends to disagree here).

On the other hand you admit that the problems of Deutsche Bahn stem from the fact that politicians have had too much influence on it.

Guess how you can keep politicians out of companies? By keeping them private.

I will never understand why so many people think that companies are magically doing better because the government is running them. That’s just a myth.

Both the government and private entities can be good or bad at running companies. However, the huge advantage with private companies is that customers have options thanks to competition.

Anyone who still has memories of telephone companies run by the government knows what I’m talking about.

As for Deutsche Bahn, the government has full control over it meaning the company is run by the government. Whether it’s officially a German Aktiengesellschaft or not, doesn’t matter at all.

Your argument is often brought up by proponents of a government-run railway so that they don’t have to admit that Deutsche Bahn isn’t doing well despite being run by the government.

by cbmuser

1/2/2026 at 5:04:25 AM

Japan isn't really disagreeing. Japan had decades of tight control and infrastructure investment led by the government. Only pretty narrow rail operations are done privately. And in a system where those companies know pretty well that if they try things that go to far, they will have political issues.

And japan is also an exception, as most other system that do work well are not like Japan at all.

> I will never understand why so many people think that companies are magically doing better because the government is running them. That’s just a myth.

That's not really the claim. The reason government running them can work well is because you can run it like an integrated system for the public good. You can actually do system wide planning and implementation and transformation. You can do targeted investment across the whole live-cycle of the system and all its components. You can drive standardization.

Sure if a single company owned everything, they could do that to. But to have a single monopoly normal private company running so much of a countries infrastructure would be patently insane. And literally nobody has or will ever run things that way.

Britain trying to privatize Network Rail is about as close to as you are going to get. And that lasted for a few years at most.

> However, the huge advantage with private companies is that customers have options thanks to competition.

In a perfect world maybe, but when we are talking about rail systems, you do not magically get many rail lines between places just because you say 'private'.

It takes 100s of years of infrastructure and investment to build up a rail network.

And to unlock the true potential of that infrastructure having competing companies run trains on it, is just one marginal potentially beneficial thing you can do. And of the things you can do, its far, far, far away from what actually impacts the consumer the most.

This is completely clear to all experts that study this topic. Complete integrated time-tabling, planning and standardization is far more important then marginal competition on few main lines.

> As for Deutsche Bahn, the government has full control over it meaning the company is run by the government. Whether it’s officially a German Aktiengesellschaft or not, doesn’t matter at all.

You are narrowly talking about legal technicalities. But you are ignoring the larger cultural and historical aspect.

The fact is, the way the German government created the DB was to be private and to make money. That lead the DB culturally to act much differently then traditional national railway companies, like SBB.

And like an actual company they started to invest widely in all sorts of stuff while not focusing on their core business.

So legally it might not matter, but historically it for sure this. It actually makes a difference if your railway company is primary a national instrument to bring affordable public transportation to the people, or if its designed to be a profit making company.

> Your argument is often brought up by proponents of a government-run railway so that they don’t have to admit that Deutsche Bahn isn’t doing well despite being run by the government.

Everybody knows that government ownerships isn't a magic pill. And most people admit that DB isn't doing well and that its government owned. What people dislike is how DB is organized and set up and how politics and DB interacts.

by panick21_

1/1/2026 at 11:20:53 PM

For all its existence it has been 100% state-owned and state-controlled, yet because it's a failure, it's still somehow "not state, but actually privatized", even though not "full actual privatization" (but only imagined privatization).

I understand the desire to have a scapegoat for failure, and to externalize it in some abstract capitalists/neoliberals/conservatives, but abandoning reality to create your own world has no predictive power and is not a long-term strategy.

by luckylion

1/1/2026 at 11:47:36 PM

We don't usually think of the board of directors as controlling a company, nor the shareholders. They appoint a CEO, and then are hands-off unless the CEO really fucks up. This principle still remains true when the shareholders are a state.

by immibis

1/2/2026 at 12:02:06 AM

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, but the fact remains that the German government has full control over Deutsche Bahn and any mismanagement can be blamed 100% on the German government.

by cbmuser

12/29/2025 at 8:19:12 AM

Not sure what socialism has to do with getting multiple ticket systems to speak to each other. I sometimes worry HN is astroturfed but I tend to read comments like this more simply as trolling.

by vintagedave

12/29/2025 at 10:24:20 AM

Yeh this has more to do with the failures of federation and has nothing to do with socialism.

Federation is a huge part of why Germany struggles to deliver on it's digitalization goals.

Having every podunk authority handling ticket issuance basically guarantees signing keys will eventually be stolen/misused. The lack of a robust revocation mechanism is the nail in the coffin though.

by grumpy-de-sre

1/1/2026 at 8:19:09 PM

The US provides plenty of anti-socialist fervor even without astroturfing.

We also get a bit of paid-for goading, just to keep it lively. But we do just fine without it.

by jfengel

1/1/2026 at 8:25:10 PM

> Not sure what socialism has to do with

Nothing. Some people just wake up in the morning and have to interject their "socialism = bad" religion into at least one thread in order to feel they've done their evangelism for the day.

by ryandrake

1/2/2026 at 12:04:41 AM

I grew up in a socialist country and anyone equates socialism with failure is 100% spot on.

People who think that living in socialism is in any way desirable simply don’t understand what socialism actually means.

by cbmuser

12/29/2025 at 9:59:21 AM

All those socialist... Companies? With their socialist coding?

Maybe they also use Marx# (M#) with a socialist software architecture.

by notTooFarGone

12/29/2025 at 10:27:24 AM

Isn’t the Deutschlandticket for public transportation?

by blell

1/1/2026 at 7:58:28 PM

Privately owned and operated transportation, where the main government involvement is just telling them to make it happen and then giving a certain amount of money per active subscription.

by immibis

12/29/2025 at 4:18:01 PM

[flagged]

by 476392647282

12/29/2025 at 3:31:35 PM

Huh? I mean if anything the problem here was privatisation of local transport (and too much faith in said privatised transport by the national authorities), which doesn’t seem _particularly_ socialist.

by rsynnott