alt.hn

12/12/2025 at 4:37:04 PM

Senator endorses discredited book that claims chemical treats autism, cancer

 https://www.propublica.org/article/ron-johnson-wisconsin-chlorine-dioxide-pierre-kory-endorsement

by duxup

12/12/2025 at 6:33:48 PM

I half-jokingly believe that MAHA is the answer the Fermi Paradox.

As technology/civilization progresses gains become more demanding, it requires a species to exploit increasingly subtler, smaller-scale and longer-term aspects of reality itself. Feedback loops go from hours to months to decades. An abacus is large and accessible to all, a relay switch is still large but not very accessible, basic lithography already requires very fine control of light and EUV processes are just insane. It's not just that things get smaller, but the timelines get longer and you have to start relying on very specific analytical work to achieve anything. Whether computing, medicine, energy, etc, everything is subject to this trend.

Our brains haven't evolved for this kind of work, and being able to perform it is probably just a happy accident. To a lot of people small, subtle, long-term effects just aren't real. Only macro-scale effects and short feedback loops are real, which is why the current MAHA health crazy is heavily focused on weights, food etc. Simple things they can understand and control. A graph of infection rates between control and experimental groups are not real. Graphs of carbon concentrations are not real, graphs in general are not real. All that stuff is "fake email jobs".

There's no reason to think our savannah-produced monkey brains can cope with the demands of technology so advanced that we become "aliens".

by martythemaniak

12/12/2025 at 8:06:24 PM

You sir, should write a book. (Yours is the best interpretation of MAHA I've heard yet.)

by bloomingeek

12/12/2025 at 6:59:06 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Johnson

lots of _oofs_ while reading his page. ron, i was not familiar with your game.

“The House Select Committee on the January 6, 2021, Capitol Attack revealed that Johnson's aide Sean Riley texted Chris Hodgson, an aide to Vice President Mike Pence, to request that Johnson personally give Pence an envelope containing alternate electors for Michigan and Wisconsin, which were later determined to be fraudulent. Hodgson refused to do so. In March 2022, Johnson's campaign hired Pam Travis as a full-time aide, although she had signed a statement as one of Wisconsin's ten "fake electors," who challenged the legitimacy of the state's delegation to the Electoral College. While walking outside the Capitol and pretending to be on a phone call, Johnson claimed he was not aware of the contents of the envelope.”

by JMiao

12/12/2025 at 6:15:10 PM

The undermining of science has given people like this more of a voice. US leadership has got to the point where science is largely disregarded and leaders just impose whatever they think is true regardless of facts.

by mrinterweb

12/12/2025 at 7:16:15 PM

I think it's more fundamental than that: science education has gotten so bad that people miss what should be pretty clear red flags.

The hydroxychloroquine debacle is one thing because there's no way as a layman to gauge that. It's still wrong, but I understand that people were worried and there's no intuitive route to "this won't help".

This feels like something where even laymen should be skeptical. Baseline, disinfectants are generally not medicine. Really, I would hope our education system was good enough that people hear "chlorinated disinfectant" and can jump to "probably an oxidizer and very bad for living things".

by everforward

12/12/2025 at 11:17:06 PM

Hydroxychloroquine is definitely different from most of the bogus medical stuff going around.

When hydroxychloroquine was first proposed for COVID there was actually reason to think it might help. It is known to interfere with one of the mechanisms that COVID uses to enter cell membranes. The FDA in the US and equivalent regulators in many other countries gave it an emergency use authorization.

A few months later with more data it was found that it had some bad side effects and that it wasn't actually useful against COVID (most of the time COVID used a mechanism other than the one that hydroxychloroquine interfered with to enter cells).

by tzs

12/12/2025 at 7:32:20 PM

I sort of think the hydroxychloroquine debacle was a "choose your own experts" situation.

by biophysboy

12/12/2025 at 6:46:46 PM

With respect, I think that’s a stretch.

Scientific method is practical. Scientific fact is a belief system, not unlike religion. This doesn’t undermine science, it’s just stating what these things are. Scientific belief can be helpful.

These silly beliefs though can be harmful as is the case with Chlorine Dioxide and that horse deworming medicine they said would cure Covid.

Don’t confuse or try to link these things together. The reason that the government is now full of idiots is that people voted those idiots in. It wasn’t due to clarity that science is part belief system.

by gibralterwassel

12/12/2025 at 7:55:31 PM

I mean undermining of science in the sense of popular opinion. These politicians actively denigrate, de-fund, ignore science. Unfortunately, these same politicians were popular enough to gain power. They continue to attack science and treat science as if science and those who value it are their enemy.

by mrinterweb

12/12/2025 at 6:58:46 PM

Why do you think people voted these idiots in? In large part it's due to a distrust of science and rationality, "the system of the elites". Don't tell me that I need to vaccinate my kids! I'll cure my pancreatic cancer naturopathologically.

by saulpw

12/12/2025 at 7:02:33 PM

> Why do you think people voted these idiots in?

In my unbroken experience, they possess a demonstrated ability to believe in trivially disproven lies.

by WarOnPrivacy

12/12/2025 at 7:38:48 PM

And the reason for believing these lies is because it's easier to listen to disgraced news outlets instead of reading a book or asking questions. It's a double edged sword: duped on one side and willful ignorance on the other.

Some might say, who cares about what idiots think? Well, these idiots get one vote, just like the rest of us.

by bloomingeek

12/12/2025 at 10:00:48 PM

> And the reason for believing these lies is because it's easier to listen to disgraced news outlets instead of reading a book or asking questions.

If it was just laziness, their belief wouldn't persist in the face of better information.

Willfully clasping onto an absurd premise this way strongly implies to me there is some sub-optimal psychology in play. There is a needful relationship inside that is being sustained (at a starvation level) by these exploitive external forces.

by WarOnPrivacy

12/13/2025 at 12:11:39 AM

Your response, to me, is profound. I've lived in a deeply red voting state (OK) all my life. I never could understand how voters could vote against their best interests and to the harm of others. Perhaps your "sub-optimal psychology in play" is a reasonable answer.

by bloomingeek

12/13/2025 at 4:54:09 AM

I'm a recovering conservative. I've had some time to reflect.

by WarOnPrivacy

12/12/2025 at 7:17:03 PM

You can certainly side with Descartes and believe in rationalism, or you can study David Hume and understand those beliefs for what they are.

You can still have and respect beliefs, but distinguishing fact from belief is purely in the realm of philosophical debate. That doesn’t mean you have to accept absence of absolute truth or facts, but there is much we don’t know and that we think we know but we don’t, and that is logical and illogical. Life is dichotomy.

by antiration

12/12/2025 at 7:50:13 PM

There is a huge chasm between superstition and transcendence. Rationality is limited, to be sure, but I'll take it over MAHA and tariffs any day.

by saulpw

12/14/2025 at 5:48:45 AM

No, you are witnessing democracy in action. People can disagree about "facts" and that is ok. People need to stop trying to impose things like this on others, have conversations with people they disagree with, and otherwise mind their business instead of advocating for a different group to impose on everyone whatever they think is true, disregarding individual autonomy and basic liberties.

by wakawaka28

12/12/2025 at 4:59:28 PM

They always say "more research is needed", overlooking the extensive research already done. At concentrations required for antimicrobial effects, chlorine dioxide poses serious toxicity risks - endangering the patient rather than helping them. You’d think these same people would have been dismissed after pushing ivermectin during COVID, but here we are.

by taylodl

12/12/2025 at 6:40:43 PM

Truth Social is still running ads for ivermectin.

They’re going to milk this market for all it’s worth. The reason they’re still around is because they have money and the people around them keep enabling them because money.

by josh_p

12/12/2025 at 7:52:49 PM

I sometimes wonder what fraction of the peddlers of this nonsense know exactly what they’re doing but have no problem raking in the cash. Close to 100%? I feel the same about the elected politicians.

On more than one occasion I’ve thought it would be nice to retire wealthy by milking the easy money that seems to endlessly flow, but then I realize I wouldn’t be able to look myself in the mirror if I did that.

by rootusrootus

12/12/2025 at 7:23:13 PM

To be fair the raw milk drinkers probably need some de-wormer.

by RobotToaster

12/12/2025 at 7:37:48 PM

They may also want to gargle some water with a little Chlorine Dioxide in it, just to help with their breath.

by farmer0

12/12/2025 at 5:23:15 PM

It "treats cancer and autism" in the same way a bullet does - by killing the host.

by QuercusMax

12/12/2025 at 6:41:21 PM

I don't mind if MAHA self-administer, but I do wish they would spare their children.

by NoGravitas

12/12/2025 at 7:20:53 PM

Sorta like how the proper order of a murder-suicide is to do the suicide part first before the murder

by QuercusMax

12/12/2025 at 7:48:25 PM

I can respect this view, but at the same time, infectious diseases are public problems by nature. I am skeptical state coercion would work (didn't even work in China), but I don't think a laissez faire attitude on the cultural level is rational. We should "pressure" people to be vaccinated in the same way we pressure people to not do other dangerous things!

by biophysboy

12/12/2025 at 7:44:14 PM

Hah! I worked with some men who were taking ivermectin, no amount of reasoning could talk them out of it because Fauci was in the "deep state". One of them became very ill, sadly.

by bloomingeek

12/12/2025 at 6:05:54 PM

I know its an over used cliche but we are living through Idiocracy.

by wnevets

12/12/2025 at 6:11:13 PM

I'm sorry to be a pedantic about this, but we are absolutely not living through Idiocracy. In the movie, the President wants to better the material conditions of his people, then seeks and listens to the advice of the smartest person in the world, who successfully delivers.

If you want a movie, we are actually living in Sacha Baron Cohen's The Dictator.

by martythemaniak

12/12/2025 at 6:34:26 PM

I would vote for President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho at this point.

by duxup

12/12/2025 at 11:07:56 PM

How about this: we are living in the build-up to Idiocracy. The period that came before Not Sure showed up, when Brawndo was convincing the government to water crops with Brawndo.

by muwtyhg

12/12/2025 at 6:10:51 PM

Are we sure his coauthor is Jenna McCarthy? Also, the article was impressive in how it kept getting worse. A good reminder I need to donate to ProPublica.

by tclancy

12/12/2025 at 6:13:21 PM

> “They’re throwing up and vomiting and having diarrhea and rashes,” Eaton said … Some adherents advise parents that the disturbing effects indicate that the treatment is working, ridding the body of impurities

A time traveler from the 17th Century would be familiar with this sort of quackery. I guess not everyone can sell alchemy, so some make do with other branches of “science”.

by tclancy

12/12/2025 at 6:43:33 PM

Funny you should say that. I was reminded of Paracelcus who had the idea 'Only the dose makes the poison'. He was thinking that low doses of poisonous substances could be curative ... similar to this idea of using chlorine dioxide, with the crucial point here being the amount that is safe is tiny.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide#Safety_issues... the EPA "has set a maximum level of 0.8 mg/L for chlorine dioxide in drinking water", which is certainly much higher than the amounts in MMS.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement (for example) - "Following a May 2010 advisory which indicated that MMS exceeds tolerable levels of sodium chlorite by a factor of 200".

Summarising, the idea of toxicity of chemicals and dosage was first explored by an alchemist (Paracelcus) in the 1500s, which is the 16th C. - so yes, 17th C. medics might have been able to point out how crazy this all is, let alone 21st C. people of any kind.

It's been 500 years, people.

by gilleain

12/12/2025 at 6:58:42 PM

> Are we sure his coauthor is Jenna McCarthy?

    The War On Ivermectin – Jenna McCarthy
    Written with Jenna McCarthy, Dr. Kory’s story chronicles the personal
    attacks, professional setbacks, and nefarious efforts of the world’s major
    health agencies and medical journals to dismiss and deny ivermectin’s
    efficacy.
    jennamccarthy.com/portfolio-items/the-war-on-ivermectin-cloned
Seems to be, yeah.

by WarOnPrivacy

12/13/2025 at 11:50:23 AM

Sorry, it was a dumb Internet comment playing on Jenny McCarthy being an anti-vaxxer.

by tclancy

12/12/2025 at 11:30:39 PM

Yes, it is the prominent anti-vax (and vaccines-cause-autism) activist (and Andrew Wakefield defender after his fraud and data manipulation was uncovered) Jenna McCarthy. Why does this inspire skepticism? (Skepticism that she would be the co-author; it should certainly inspire skepticism of the work itself.)

by dragonwriter

12/12/2025 at 4:57:11 PM

> The action, he’s said, makes him unemployable, even though he still has a license

Well I guess you cannot be too stupid to be in Congress. The place were unemployable people end up.

by jmclnx

12/12/2025 at 5:24:37 PM

This will continue to happen so long as two things continue to exist:

1) diseases and conditions refractory to treatment or cure by modern medicine

2) expenses related to medical care being born by Americans at a personal level

If you look at other countries, there are absolutely people in positions of power who still push quack medicine because of 1), but 2) creates an extra incentive for desperate or overeager people to try quack medicine.

by lenerdenator

12/12/2025 at 9:57:24 PM

(2) needs to be nuanced, since we're talking about cancer. Medicare has very good coverage. And EU cancer care can have high out-of-pocket costs. 80% of young European cancer patients report financial difficulties as a result.

by concinds

12/12/2025 at 6:33:00 PM

? expenses related to medical care are borne by americans at a personal level

by biophysboy

12/12/2025 at 9:40:58 PM

Americans who lack health insurance or who have bad health insurance that won't cover all but the most catastrophic of claims.

Think about it: you're a person with a chronic condition that's severely impacting your life. Treating or curing it requires doctor visits, medications, or some other sort of expense that you just cannot afford. You see someone say that it can be treated with some cheap, commonly-available chemicals, but "Big Pharma" and the medical-industrial complex don't want you to know about it because it'll put them out of business. All you have to do is pay $19.95 for their book on it.

by lenerdenator

12/12/2025 at 6:11:09 PM

The USA has contracted a bad case of stupidity.

by jqpabc123

12/12/2025 at 7:55:32 PM

Yes, but much like obesity, the rest of the world doesn’t seem far behind. I’d advise people to be careful while pointing and laughing at the US that they don’t miss the tide rising in their neck of the woods too.

by rootusrootus

12/12/2025 at 7:54:31 PM

We also have a bad case of idol worship.

by bloomingeek

12/12/2025 at 6:39:17 PM

A terminal case, even

by jckahn

12/12/2025 at 6:06:11 PM 

  “Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians.
   Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from?  They don't fall out of the sky.
   They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families,
   American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities,
   and they are elected by American citizens.
   
   This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out.
   If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good;
   you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans.
  
   So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public.
   Yeah, the public sucks. There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. Fuck Hope.'”
  
   - George Carlin

by 0xbadcafebee

12/12/2025 at 6:51:46 PM

> It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out.

It's not primarily merit based though is it? It's very much about who has more money these days or is that wrong?

by barbazoo

12/12/2025 at 7:31:56 PM

Who said anything about merit?

Given the US is a democracy (presuming voting is reasonably representative of the voter's intent, i.e., voter fraud is not significant in determining the "will of the people"), and plenty of examples where the candidate that was outspent/had less money still won, blaming money is a cop out.

The majority of people who bothered to vote in Wisconsin since 2010 voted for Johnson. Money has an influence but isn't determinative.

by dc396

12/12/2025 at 7:57:58 PM

Exactly. People point to money because it’s uncomfortable to admit that a majority of your neighbors, friends, and family are odious or stupid.

by rootusrootus

12/12/2025 at 6:12:05 PM

Trying to ban these people always seems like a terrible idea, it just leads to the inevitable claims that they must be right because the government is after them.

In the case of ivermectin, because it's relatively safe (In human doses, not horse doses) it would have been interesting to see how conspiracy theorists reacted if the government just gave it to anyone that requested it.

by RobotToaster

12/12/2025 at 6:31:12 PM

What should we do instead? They don't listen to evidence either

by biophysboy

12/12/2025 at 6:44:32 PM

Long term, we need far, far, more funding for research into treatments that actually work.

Even short term that could help, if people are accessing experimental treatments through clinical trials they won't be desperate enough to try fake treatments. The main reason people use alternative medicine is because conventional medicine has failed them, so they cling on to anything that will give them hope.

by RobotToaster

12/12/2025 at 5:42:43 PM

> He’s promoted disproven treatments for COVID-19 and claimed, without evidence, that athletes are “dropping dead on the field” after getting the COVID-19 vaccination.

It’s interesting how prevalent lies and claims without evidence have become. And one lie gives another one the space to be accepted. At risk of making a claim without evidence myself, I feel like there is some link between claiming Haitians are eating dogs and claiming that athletes are dying after vaccination.

Another aspect is some lies have a small truth. Like maybe the claim that an athlete died after vaccination has one example. But that doesn’t mean it is true in general or that the athlete didn’t have some special situation. I see a lot of generalizations casually tossed around these days, especially in American politics.

by SilverElfin

12/12/2025 at 6:15:10 PM

Yes, there was an athlete or small number of athletes who died. It happens sometimes, it happened before COVID also. A seemingly very healthy person just drops dead. But it was seized upon and made big news, at least where it suited the agenda being pushed.

by SoftTalker

12/12/2025 at 6:03:03 PM

What's happening is that politicians are slowly realizing that they no longer get punished for lying. At some point people got so worn down by more sophisticated half-truths that a large portion of the voter base just don't care about how true rhetoric is anymore. That plus the veil of civility that seems to prevent effective counter messaging mean lying blatantly is actually an effective strategy.

by idle_zealot

12/12/2025 at 6:35:54 PM

For some of the replies here: EVERY vaccine licensed for use in the united states has clinical review documents (100+ pages) detailing the reactogenicity/immunogenicity of the vaccine in question. These findings result from excellent experimental design

by biophysboy

12/12/2025 at 6:25:06 PM

Everyone who has died in America in the past 75 years has "died after vaccination".

by jeffbee

12/12/2025 at 5:57:31 PM

"The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion."

by owlninja

12/12/2025 at 6:04:47 PM

I don't see the irony. The industrial age brought industrial warfare.

by boothby

12/12/2025 at 6:06:51 PM

[dead]

by stuffn

12/12/2025 at 5:22:10 PM

In case you wanted more information than the headline, here's the subhead:

Wisconsin's Ron Johnson has a history of spreading vaccine misinformation. Now he's giving credence to assertions about the therapeutic powers of chlorine dioxide, a disinfectant and deodorizer.

by QuercusMax