alt.hn

4/23/2025 at 6:23:10 AM

The Ghosts of Gaelic

 https://www.historytoday.com/archive/behind-times/ghosts-gaelic

by apollinaire

4/23/2025 at 7:38:20 AM

mar ná beidh ár leithéidí arís ann

  An Béal Bocht (The Poor Mouth) is a 1941 novel in Irish by Brian O'Nolan (better known by his pen name Flann O'Brien), published under the pseudonym "Myles na gCopaleen".
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_B%C3%A9al_Bocht

  set in Corca Dhorcha, a remote region of Western Ireland where it never stops raining, everyone lives in desperate poverty (and always will), while also talking in "the learned smooth Gaelic".

  It is a memoir of one Bónapárt Ó Cúnasa (Bonaparte O'Coonassa), a resident of this region, beginning at his very birth.

  At one point the area is visited by hordes of Gaeilgeoirí (Irish language lovers) from Dublin, who explain that not only should one always speak Irish, but also every sentence one utters in Irish should be about the language question.

  However, they eventually abandon the area because the poverty is too impoverished, the cultural authenticity is too culturally authentic, and because the dialect of the Irish-language spoken in Corca Dhorcha is far too Irish.
How does the language sound then?

example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFfDirBE6w with transcript and translation: https://songsinirish.com/?song=i-wanna-fight-your-father-lyr...

by defrost

4/23/2025 at 9:48:45 AM

Hah, that video was ... unexpected to say the least.

I love Brian O'Nolan/Flann O'Brian - particularly the Third Policeman. I should read The Poor Mouth.

Wonder if there are Scottish Gaelic bands like The Rubberbandits. I like Clannadonia, but they are 'just' a piper/drummer band.

by gilleain

4/23/2025 at 1:48:39 PM

Flann O'Brian can't be celebrated enough - 'At Swim-Two-Birds' is up there with Ulysses in terms of the great works of English language literature.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/08/100-best-novel...

In terms of the cultural resurgeance of Irish, whilst the Rubberbandits have done their part, its nothing compared to the full-on assault on cultural consciousness the politically divisive rap-group 'Kneecap' have performed - although they're about to be cancelled by the pro-Zionist lobby in the US.

https://www.screenireland.ie/news/kneecap-becomes-first-iris...

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/kneecap

Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFYfp-hKxZQ

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/23/sharon-osbourn...

by piltdownman

4/23/2025 at 1:55:17 PM

There's an animated version of the graphic novel of An Béal Bocht that I haven't had a chance to watch yet but have had highly recommended to me.

I did find the description kinda funny though "An animated adaptation of Flann O’Brien’s only novel written in Irish under the pseudonym of Myles Na gCopaleen. It is a biting satire of the life story of a young Gael reflecting on his life from Sligo Gaol." - as if Flann wasn't also a pseudonym, but I suppose he never wrote much under the name Brian.

(Entirely unrelated, I saw the German adaptation of ASTB as a teenager and it was fascinating. Not necessarily good, but out there)

by fullofbees

4/24/2025 at 12:06:42 AM

Cheers for the link and the notes.

FWiW he was a prolific writer all his life, as a pre computer civil servent he would have written at length all through many of his days at work .. the rules of the day demanded he be circumspect in regard to public opinion:

  Given the desperate poverty of Ireland in the 1930s to 1960s, a job as a civil servant was considered prestigious, being both secure and pensionable with a reliable cash income in a largely agrarian economy.

  The Irish civil service has been, since the Irish Civil War, fairly strictly apolitical.
  Civil Service Regulations and the service's internal culture generally prohibit Civil Servants above the level of Clerical Officer from publicly expressing political views.

  As a practical matter, this meant that writing in newspapers on current events was, during O'Brien's career, generally prohibited without departmental permission which would be granted on an article-by-article, publication-by-publication basis.

  This fact alone contributed to O'Brien's use of pseudonyms, though he had started to create character authors even in his pre-civil service writings.
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flann_O'Brien

He had an extended family to support after all.

by defrost

4/23/2025 at 3:16:45 PM

> How does the language sound then?

Whenever I hear about Scottish Gaelic, I remember a moment of my childhood, when I have seen some Scottish singer performing "Màiri Bhàn" in Gaelic, and I have liked that song very much, including its lyrics, despite the fact that the Gaelic lyrics were unintelligible for me.

Searching for "Màiri Bhàn" will find many examples of how Scottish Gaelic sounds, for instance this is a good one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhce99y_a_A

by adrian_b

4/23/2025 at 8:04:34 AM

>In order for that to happen we need to have stable Gaelic communities to sing the ballads and tell the stories, with formal and informal education that invites new generations into the tradition.

Whilst this has been true for centuries, you can actually see it happening right now in real time with Kneecap (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneecap_(band)) and the incredible impact they are having on popularising the Irish language.

by Peroni

4/23/2025 at 8:06:52 AM

Kneecap are great for many reasons, but they're a symptom of the recent quiet resurgence of Irish across the island, not the cause.

by closewith

4/23/2025 at 2:20:18 PM

For a whole generation, they're definitely the cause. I've been traveling through Scotland for the past little while and there's real admiration and appreciation for what Kneecap is doing for the Irish language throughout. Scottish needs its own Gaelic heroes to make speaking it cool again.

by pluc

4/23/2025 at 8:35:45 AM

Seems like a very backwards-looking article. Would've been interesting to hear more about his ideas for the future, such as what this should involve:

> if the new Scottish Languages Bill is to succeed in securing the Gaelic and Scots languages in the face of immense pressures, then the needs of the communities speaking those languages must be at the heart of it

Gaelic advances in the modern era include:

* the foundation of Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, a Gaelic-medium university

* the rise of Gaelic-medium education as an option for primary and secondary school

* Gaelic-language radio and TV stations

* The launch, a few years ago, of SpeakGaelic (https://speakgaelic.scot/) with loads of learning materials (mentioned in the OP).

Problems include the continued dilution of Gaelic-speaking communities (native speakers either die or move somewhere with better job prospects; non-speakers buy up holiday homes or Airbnb investment vehicles in the area) and the perception that career prospects are much better for people educated in English (perhaps with a bit of French or similar on the side) than those educated in Gaelic.

by tsm

4/23/2025 at 6:17:27 PM

In Ireland the creation of a national Irish language TV station is definitely credited with helping keep the language alive, and it is practically the same language. Gaelic language TV in Scotland would also have an audience here, and the two channels might even cooperate in programming.

I can easily see a gritty noir Gaelic language cop show taking the world by storm.

Fís Eireann (Screen Ireland) is another success story. Although they fund Irish filmmaking in any language, there have been a slew of very well received Irish language films lately. Most notably An Cailín Cúin (The Quiet Girl) which made history this year as the first Gaelic film to be nominated for an academy award for best foreign language film.

by nopelynopington

4/23/2025 at 9:14:42 PM

> In Ireland the creation of a national Irish language TV station is definitely credited with helping keep the language alive, and it is practically the same language. Gaelic language TV in Scotland would also have an audience here, and the two channels might even cooperate in programming.

This is definitely one of these cases where you feel that things that were around in your childhood have been around forever, but things introduced since then are new.

I'd assumed TG4 also dated from the 60s/70s like RTE and was going to comment that the time frames didn't really line up. Turns out it came about in 1996 - still over a decade before the current revival in interest, but much closer in overlap.

by Macha

4/24/2025 at 8:16:33 AM

I'm old enough that I remember when it started up :)

Raidió na Gaeltachta was founded in 1972 (before my time), I think people often confuse or conflate the history of the two.

What's super confusing is the naming.

There were two stations at the time - rte1 and network2 (really just rte2). The Irish language channel launched as "T na G" or "Telifis na Gaeltacht" in 1996. Then TV3, an independent station, launched in 1998. Later TnaG rebranded as TG4, even though it predated Tv3, which itself has since rebranded as Virgin Media One.

So in chronological order our channels go 1,2,4,1

by nopelynopington

4/23/2025 at 2:55:47 PM

It's hard, but it's doable. If Jews managed to resurrect Hebrew which was dead for centuries, what would be the reason for Scott not to revive Gaelic if they really wanted to?

by miroljub

4/23/2025 at 4:54:35 PM

I think it's a very different situation:

- Israel is composed of people from different parts of the world with different languages so as a matter of practical policy they had to standardize on some uniform language for the country. Scotland doesn't have this problem: English is already the uniform standardized language.

- Israel exists in a more "existential" position than Scotland - there is more of a sense that their country and culture could be lost. Thus there is a bigger motivation to preserve what makes them different. I think you see this play out in Ireland, actually: there seems to be more of an interest in the Irish language in Northern Ireland, where the Irish identify is seen as more under threat, than in the Republic, where it is safe.

by returningfory2

4/25/2025 at 1:48:51 PM

Well, give it a decade or two, and you'll have the equivalent situation, with no dominant language group and many Pashtu, Hindi, Arab, Polish, Bengali, Farsi, Urdu, and other speakers.

by miroljub

4/23/2025 at 6:52:36 PM

> I think you see this play out in Ireland, actually: there seems to be more of an interest in the Irish language in Northern Ireland, where the Irish identify is seen as more under threat, than in the Republic, where it is safe.

You have this backwards. Ireland, both Ireland and Northern Ireland, have pockets of interest in the language and culture, but it really is true that the country, culture, and language that was Ireland pre-famine no longer exists. It was successfully and deliberately eradicated.

by closewith

4/23/2025 at 4:48:23 PM

One thing they had going for them is that the people who moved (and move) to Israel come from a number of different language backgrounds, so it wasn't the case of make everyone who speaks language A now instead speak language B (as would the the case with Gaelic in Scotland, and was with Irish in Ireland) so much as choose a language all the speakers of A, B, an C can agree to learn and use so that can all talk to each other.

by anyonecancode

4/23/2025 at 11:22:19 AM

" the perception that career prospects are much better for people educated in English (perhaps with a bit of French or similar on the side) than those educated in Gaelic."

I think that this is the reality, not merely perception. How many college textbooks are even available in Gaelic?

by UltraSane

4/23/2025 at 1:37:33 PM

I certainly know of a few written in Welsh

by selimthegrim

4/23/2025 at 3:06:44 PM

“A Critical Approach to Dragonslaying Theory & Practice, 4th Ed.”

by nativeit

4/23/2025 at 4:51:34 PM

Isn't that more commonly known as "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools"?

by mauvehaus

4/23/2025 at 7:41:36 AM

I find it odd that the article makes almost zero mention of how Ireland is doing with its very closely related form of Gaelic. Ireland has arguably been at least slightly more successful.

Or Wales? Or other minority languages, such as Basque? Just nothing -- not a mention.

It's missing quite a lot of context.

by eamonnsullivan

4/23/2025 at 11:54:57 AM

Ireland is awkward: there are state policies and all, but the language as taught in schools and universities is quite different from the varieties spoken inside Gaelic-speaking communities (gaeltachta) by a very small number of people. Scottish Gaelic is much better preserved in the communities, and Welsh is basically doing fine (hundreds of thousands of speakers), so it can be argued that the situation on the ground in the three communities is very different to touch upon in a smallish article.

by macleginn

4/23/2025 at 1:38:46 PM

// but the language as taught in schools and universities is quite different from the varieties spoken inside Gaelic-speaking communities (gaeltachta) by a very small number of people

There's only 3 regional dialects of Irish - Connacht, Munster and Ulster - and all three dialects are tested at Aural level in the School leavers Exam. There's very little difference between them bar pronunciation and some common phrases.

The vast vast majority of daily Irish speakers would speak Connacht Irish - i.e. Connemara Irish - due to spending time in the Colaiste Gaeilge during the summer holidays; effectively state-subsidised Irish language Summer Camps. It's also the predominant dialect on TG4 - the Irish language TV station.

Wales has a massively larger proportion of native speakers of Welsh daily, but this is due to the lack of colonial history attempting to wipe out the language, and the far more multi-cultural make-up of Ireland.

by piltdownman

4/23/2025 at 2:01:38 PM

Munster Irish has some noticeable differences in morphology and the use of grammatical particles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munster_Irish

by macleginn

4/23/2025 at 2:10:19 PM

The thing is that there's not really any Munster Gaeltachts outside of Corca Dhuibhne in 2025. The only time you'll hear anything close to the differentiated Munster Irish outside of a Leaving Cert textbook is someone like Jack O'Connor giving commentary on TG4 after a match.

I'd also disagree with a lot of the sentence structure formation and 'grammar' espoused as fact on that Wiki page. You'd be marked down on any Irish Higher Level Paper 2 marking scheme that I'm aware of - e.g.

https://www.examinations.ie/archive/markingschemes/2019/LC00...

More to the point, I'd emphasise the far larger impact of Gaeilge on the dialect of Hiberno-English spoken down there - e.g. 'What mood are you in', 'I've the hunger of the world on me', 'I'm after having a fierce supper there' etc...

by piltdownman

4/23/2025 at 7:53:07 AM

Why? It’s not about ireland - it’s about scotland. Article makes complete sense in a scottish context.

by JetSetWilly

4/23/2025 at 7:57:55 AM

I absolutely understand that, but it seems concerned with the same things (preserving a minority language) and there are lots of initiatives in this area all over the U.K. Literally, right next door.

by eamonnsullivan

4/23/2025 at 8:14:07 AM

Really the article - despite the headline - spends a long time on the literary history of gaelic in scotland, with a short paragraph at the end on the current status. I doubt the author had time to expand to a review of minority language measures globally, and it didn’t seem to be the main point of it anyway.

And, the situation and standing of gaelic in Ireland and Scotland are quite different. In Ireland, gaelic is strongly associated with the primary, and successful ethnonationalist movement. In Scotland, at the end of the day gaelic is a remnant of a foreign invasion, and is also historically associated with catholicism, so is often seen as the “other”. This makes it more difficult to whip up enthusiasm to learn it, even among die hard Scottish nationalists. This whole situation is quite unlike Ireland and even Wales, it would be at best a distraction in the article.

by JetSetWilly

4/23/2025 at 9:30:07 AM

English and Scots are also of course remnants of a foreign invasion.

by Gupie

4/23/2025 at 10:33:09 AM

So are the Gaelic languages. (It's turtles all the way down).

by flir

4/23/2025 at 11:25:30 AM

Gaelic arrived in Scotland within 100 years of English arriving in England. They are both attested to arrive in around the 4th - 5th AD century IIRC. Before that Scotland spoke Pictish (which is not known in the modern era and may/maynot have been a Brythonic language) and a language related to Welsh in the Lowlands. Gaelic is a very interesting language and should absolutely get championed and preserved, but it is not the ancient language of Scotland, and hasn't really been spoken there much longer than the English language was in the UK.

by memsom

4/23/2025 at 7:48:20 AM

You can't expect consistently accurate reporting on Ireland, I certainly wouldn't expect it from the BBC Eamonn growing up during the tail end of the Troubles. ;)

by senda

4/23/2025 at 8:57:55 PM

Honestly, while effort has been put in over a longer period of time in Ireland, from the outside looking in, Wales has been far more successful than Ireland. Despite being Irish and living in Ireland all my life, I know more people fluent in Welsh than in Irish. Maybe I just have severe sampling bias with my Welsh friends and colleagues?

by Macha

4/23/2025 at 7:51:39 AM

They are different languages - i mean same roots but still different

by fiftyacorn

4/23/2025 at 8:11:23 AM

The Irish spoken in the North West of Ireland (Tir Conaill) is pretty much indistinguishable from Scots Gaedhlig.

The real division is between Gaelic (Irish and Scottish) and Brythonic (Welsh, British and Cornish)

by argentier

4/23/2025 at 8:44:35 AM

The existence of a dialect continuum doesn't make them the same language. By that logic, Dutch and German are the same.

Irish and Scottish are very similar, but they are not mutually intelligible. It's very annoying when people use the word "Gaelic" because I never know which language they're referring to. Just say "Scottish"/"Scottish Gaelic", "Irish", or "The Gaelic languages".

by Asraelite

4/23/2025 at 9:27:18 AM

> Irish and Scottish are very similar, but they are not mutually intelligible

Not true.

They are mutually intelligible to a high degree. Native speakers, speaking slowly and clearly can understand most of what each other are saying.

I speak some Irish and have personal experience of this.

by biorach

4/23/2025 at 9:36:22 AM

Yeah, to a degree, my dad speaks Irish and he says the same. But it's not quite enough to be considered the same language. It's comparable to Norwegian and Swedish, or Portuguese and Spanish.

by Asraelite

4/23/2025 at 9:58:29 AM

Irish speaker here who has attempted to learn some Scottish Gaelic, and currently lives in Denmark, I think the Norwegian-Swedish comparison is probably apt. Although I think Irish/Scottish Gaelic are possibly even more divergent than that.

Side note: as an Irish speaker, reading Manx Gaelic, with its Welsh/English derived spelling system feels like what I imagine having a stroke feels like.

by messe

4/23/2025 at 11:01:01 AM

> Side note: as an Irish speaker, reading Manx Gaelic, with its Welsh/English derived spelling system feels like what I imagine having a stroke feels like.

Ha! That's a great description for how completely unsettling reading Manx is.

by biorach

4/23/2025 at 9:01:42 PM

> Irish and Scottish are very similar, but they are not mutually intelligible. It's very annoying when people use the word "Gaelic" because I never know which language they're referring to. Just say "Scottish"/"Scottish Gaelic", "Irish", or "The Gaelic languages".

Are they American? Then they mean Irish.

Are they Scottish? Then they mean Scottish Gaelic.

Are they Irish? Trick question, Irish people don't use the word.

by Macha

4/23/2025 at 11:56:54 AM

Northern (Donegal) Irish is to some extent mutually intelligible with Scottish, but it is very different from the eastern and southern varieties. The notion of the dialect "continuum" is a bit misleading here since the three varieties of Irish have been separated by English speaking regions for some time, and there are no intermediate forms.

by macleginn

4/23/2025 at 4:41:00 PM

I've often heard "Irish" for Irish and "Gaelic" for the Scottish one. Is that not used systematically?

by nyeah

4/23/2025 at 6:58:53 PM

Yes, Irish in called Irish in English and never Gaelic, which is used as an adjective. For example, the Gaelic Athletic Association.

In Irish, Irish is Gaeilge.

by closewith

4/23/2025 at 7:36:31 PM

A lot of people call Irish "Gaelic" colloquially. I hear it especially often from Americans. No idea how common it is in more formal settings.

by Asraelite

4/23/2025 at 3:08:51 PM

One of the biggest problems is the places where people speak Gaelic are now full of Airbnbs/second homes.

by Pete-Codes

4/23/2025 at 4:57:50 PM

It's always the outsider who's to blame!

by returningfory2

4/25/2025 at 3:42:06 PM

Lol

by lincon127