alt.hn

4/22/2025 at 11:22:30 AM

In restaurants, We need a new way to signal that we're ready to pay

 https://sebs.website/blog/in-restaurants-we-need-a-new-way-to-signal-payment

by Incerto

4/22/2025 at 2:12:31 PM

> Phones have displaced paper money and credit cards as the preferred way to pay for a bill at the end of a meal

this is 100% unrelatable to me

I have never once used my phone to pay in a sit-down restaurant. I have only seen someone else use their phone when forced to, such as due to a forgotten wallet, and with much fussing and apologizing

by ipsento606

4/22/2025 at 2:22:50 PM

Do you ever use your phone to pay anywhere? It's possible the process has evolved since you last used it. I use Apple Pay for 99% of all transactions and it's by far the fastest, most convenient for all parties method. They ask how I want to pay, I say credit, I double click the side of my phone and wave it over the reader. The entire process takes approximately 2 seconds.

Sometimes when traveling my credit card will get blocked and only then is there much fussing and apologizing as I attempt to find cash or pay with a physical credit card.

by lowkj

4/22/2025 at 2:29:46 PM

I think it's an age thing. Most of us that were around prior to the iPhone still whip out plastic to pay for things as it's been formed habit for so long.

by reactordev

4/22/2025 at 2:40:54 PM

I’m 58 and use my Apple Watch for pretty much everything. I only carry a single card for those rare times where I enter an establishment that does not have a chip reader.

I love it not only for convenience, but for the security as well. I don’t have to worry about a potential pickpocket seeing where I keep my wallet or how much cash is on me. I keep my transit pass on my watch for the same reason.

by sundaeofshock

4/23/2025 at 1:19:00 AM

i'm 38 and pretty much only use cash.

by lucyjojo

4/22/2025 at 2:59:02 PM

For me it comes down to security and convenience. My phone is secure, if it's stolen or lost, my payment methods are safe. If my wallet or credit card is lost, I'm canceling cards, watching my credit report, etc. I'm an old guy btw from long before the iPhone =)

by lowkj

4/22/2025 at 5:10:07 PM

Also an old guy, but I use my phone less and less to pay for things. In the major U.S. city where I live, it's not that common. And even after ten years, paying with my Apple Watch still gets stares and remarks. But that could be just that I don't frequent the sort of places that are popular on social media.

If my wallet or credit card is lost, I'm canceling cards, watching my credit report, etc.

If my wallet or credit card are stolen, I go on the bank's web site and mark them as such, and the transactions are automatically blocked by the bank and a replacement card is FedExed to me the next day. Credit report? I'm not sure how that relates to losing a wallet. I don't keep my mortgage details in my pocket.

If my phone gets lost? I don't care that much. But based on what I read on HN, people will be locked out of their bank accounts, their cars, their homes, and everything else in their lives. They won't even be able to call a loved one for help because they don't know anyone's phone number.

People on HN rail against single points of failure. Putting your entire life and trust into a piece of glass is the definition of single point of failure.

by reaperducer

4/22/2025 at 8:00:36 PM

If my card is lost, I notify the bank and all transactions are cancelled, involved the ones before the notice.

I may need to pay 150 or 250€ (cannot remember) max, and that's the limit of my liability. I would like to see the bank that will try to make me pay that, it happens once and they backtracked immediately when I told them I am closing my account then.

We do not have the US credit thing, so no repairs to watch.

This said, I am 100% with you on the security of phones vs cards.

by BrandoElFollito

4/22/2025 at 2:58:47 PM

I was about 30 when Apple Pay/Google Pay showed up; I use it fairly exclusively now. If nothing else it is much _faster_.

(Before that I was mostly using card-based tap-to-pay, but that has the disadvantage that there's a limit both on transaction size and on transactions since last validation, after which it requires pin validation. The phone-based solution don't have this; being able to unlock the phone satisfies the PSD2 requirements.)

by rsynnott

4/22/2025 at 8:56:06 PM

Yeah, I'm amazed at how convenient tap to pay is now. It is almost always significantly faster than chip readers.

Strangely, it hasn't always been the case. Early on, I really wondered if the tech would catch on, as I had a lot of issues. Lots of places didn't support tap, or had the hardware but had it disabled. For some reason, it wasn't fast at all, often taking as long as a regular card too! And worse, a tap failure seemed to require the person at the register to have to cancel the transaction on their end to allow a retry. They weren't used to tap-to-pay and would often act annoyed.

Somewhere along the way, this all changed. Taps are near instant, they rarely fail, and they usually reset pretty quickly when they do! I'd guess a lot of people who are hesitant were bitten by some of the early problems and don't realize how much smoother it all is now.

by jsight

4/22/2025 at 8:02:24 PM

At least in Europe, the tap to pay restrictions were relaxed in the last 2-3 years (differently in different countries)

by BrandoElFollito

4/22/2025 at 5:16:46 PM

If nothing else it is much _faster_.

It used to be. But in a lot of the places I shop, it's not anymore. Especially the supermarket. And Target!

  Enter your store rewards card number.  Skip.

  Do you want to pay with your store card? No.

  Do you want to donate to our charity of the month? No.

  Do you want to round up your total to save the dying baby whales?  No.

  Tap, insert or swipe.  Wave the phone around the payment pad to find the invisible, not marked sweet spot so it bleeps.

  Oh, it's a debit card! Enter your PIN.  Push. Push. Push. Push.

  Do you want cash back?  No.

  Confirm the total.  Push.

  Do you want your receipt printed, e-mailed, or not at all?  Not at all.

  Transaction complete.
Versus cash:

  Your total is $28.52.  Hand over $40.00.

  Teller puts the bills in the slot, and the machine tells her how many bills of which denominations to give me, while my coins slide down the little chute into the change tray.
And I'm gone.

by reaperducer

4/22/2025 at 8:03:53 PM

In Europe you just tell and your are gone.

But funding the oayment spot in a new place indeed looks like waving a magic wand

by BrandoElFollito

4/22/2025 at 2:30:09 PM

I’m with OP and, no, I never use my phone to pay for things. It just seems like a gimmick that I don’t feel the need to bother with. I carry my wallet more often than I carry my phone, so it makes sense for me.

by ryandrake

4/22/2025 at 2:33:38 PM

How many times in your life have you forgotten a credit card at a restaurant? For me it is one time. For my father it was three.

Not a high frequency problem, but a chore all the same.

by jncfhnb

4/22/2025 at 2:37:14 PM

If I left a card at a restaurant, I would block that card and have the issuer send a new one to my home address. It would really not be a chore at all

by ipsento606

4/22/2025 at 4:23:34 PM

You’re welcome to think otherwise but I think that’s pretty annoying

by jncfhnb

4/22/2025 at 5:47:27 PM

It happens to me maybe once every 5-10 years, whereas I open and close various credit card accounts several times a year. So for me it would be far more irritating to have to add and remove cards from my phone's virtual wallet several times a year than to potentially have to order a replacement card once every few years. Most phone wallets also don't give an option to provide a nickname for cards, which is extremely irritating if you have multiple cards from the same issuers, whereas with physical cards it takes a couple of seconds to add/remove cards from my wallet, or to make a note on a card with a sharpie.

by ipsento606

4/24/2025 at 4:10:40 PM

> I open and close various credit card accounts several times a year

Crazy to me but ok

by jncfhnb

4/22/2025 at 3:33:18 PM

Ok, repeat that but in a foreign country.

by Gud

4/23/2025 at 12:17:08 AM

I've had my bank overnight a credit card to my hotel overseas before. Not an issue at all, simple to cancel with a toggle in the app or website. Also had them send a new debit card once because I grabbed an expired card without paying attention and couldn't get cash from an ATM once I got to the overseas location. I get foreign cash from my bank before leaving now. For countries that allow it.

by 1659447091

4/22/2025 at 3:57:43 PM

I would have to use a credit card that earns slightly worse points for the rest of the trip?

by ipsento606

4/22/2025 at 2:52:58 PM

Some restaurants here in the US print a QR code on the check now. If you've got google pay/apple pay/whatever you can just scan it and immediately pay, then leave. There's also a few where you don't even need a server to order, you scan a code on the menu and can order whatever, a server delivers it, then you pay whenever and leave. It makes it really convenient when you go in with a bigger group. No worries about splitting bills, making sure everyone is ready to order, etc. Everyone can just order what they want, when they want, and all pay and leave when they want.

by barnas2

4/22/2025 at 3:47:45 PM

Is a tip still expected in that case?

by mysterydip

4/23/2025 at 1:32:09 AM

A fuck-you solution would be - QR code includes tip, but you can wait for waiter if you don't wanna tip (or wanna tip more)

by dzhiurgis

4/22/2025 at 2:34:16 PM

That really depends on where you live I guess.

Random anecdote from Estonia. I noticed around a year ago that I'm getting old - I was the only person in a restaurant that used his card to pay - everybody else used either their watch or phone. Since then, I've also upgraded/downgraded and started to use my phone for payments.. just because I don't wanna be _that_ dinosaur.

It's not always like that though - you still have lots of people using credit cards (or rarely cash) in grocery stores etc, but it does seem much more common for _the elderly_, like me, 40+ :P

by tauntz

4/22/2025 at 7:56:09 PM

It seems though that Estonia is at the bleeding edge of digitalization (at least compared to France where we are in the 17th century in comparison).

I will check myself in May when I spend a week in Tallin :)

by BrandoElFollito

4/22/2025 at 8:31:08 PM

>just because I don't wanna be _that_ dinosaur.

You need to get a little bit older, eventually you’ll find amusing to be the dinosaur surrounded by sheeps.

by neuralRiot

4/22/2025 at 2:24:44 PM

Same for me, completely unrelatable.

I know this is a bit of a bubble but all my friends that have androids have them rooted, so paying with our phones isn't even an option.

by Spunkie

4/24/2025 at 5:59:42 AM

I had never used phones to pay, or been with others who had used phones to pay, either.

When I pay by myself I always pay in cash, although I am usually with someone else who wants to pay by credit card (or sometimes by debit card). A signal does not seem needed though since they will just tell them they are ready and then will pay immediately when they have the bill ready. When I am by myself, I will pay in cash and I will try to pay in advance when I can (which has other advantages as well, such as to know the price and if I have the money to pay).

by zzo38computer

4/22/2025 at 2:56:29 PM

In general, I don't routinely carry a credit/debit card anymore; only exception is when I'm in the US, where it's still somewhat common to find swipe-only setups. I do normally carry a small amount of emergency paper money; if I'm visiting somewhere where paying with paper money is normal/preferred/mandatory (notably Germany), I'll have more.

But for normal usage, why would I carry around a card to tap on terminals when I can just tap a phone on them instead?

I think the US is possibly slightly behind the curve here because mobile terminals are a fairly new thing there; they mostly became common with Apple/Google Pay, so about ten years ago. In most of Europe, chip and pin became largely mandatory around the turn of the century, so people taking your card out the back to process it was no longer an option, and they pretty much had to have a solution that could come to the payer anyway.

by rsynnott

4/22/2025 at 2:28:34 PM

I agree. I'm not sure I've ever even seen someone paying their restaurant bill with their phone.

by JohnFen

4/23/2025 at 2:51:41 AM

I almost always pay my restaurant bills with my phone. Have been the case for maybe two years.

by signatoremo

4/22/2025 at 2:16:43 PM

I just went to mainland Europe over Easter. The only payment method I ever used was my phone (Google Pay). Not just restaurants, but everything. This matched my observations of other people. I withdrew some Euros just in case, but did not use them.

by maleldil

4/22/2025 at 2:21:39 PM

You live in island Europe?

I see people pay with cash in the Netherlands, but half the time it's with card or mobile.

by BartjeD

4/22/2025 at 2:27:43 PM

It's still a common thing to say in the UK since we used to be island Europe. Speech habits take a while to change.

by mijoharas

4/22/2025 at 3:08:49 PM

The UK is still part of "Europe" the geographical region even if it's no longer part of the EU

by shawabawa3

4/22/2025 at 2:59:44 PM

Also in Ireland, where we still are Island Europe.

by rsynnott

4/22/2025 at 2:29:38 PM

Hahaha

by BartjeD

4/22/2025 at 2:23:21 PM

There are some rather notable European islands, but I see no indication that they claimed to live there.

by BugsJustFindMe

4/22/2025 at 2:25:17 PM

(It's a joke)

by BartjeD

4/22/2025 at 2:36:13 PM

(Ok, but was it a good one?)

by BugsJustFindMe

4/22/2025 at 7:07:06 PM

I never carry cash with me.

I almost always pay with my phone using tap.

Some restaurants have a fully online payment system where you get the bill on your phone and pay from there through some online payment system. I've seen this at airport restaurants, where it makes sense as you may be in a hurry and don't want to have to wait to get the server's attention. I wouldn't like it at normal sit-down restaurants in other situations.

I don't think this is a technology problem. There are lots of lo-tech ways of signaling that would like the cheque.

by insane_dreamer

4/23/2025 at 4:52:04 AM

I haven't used a card or cash to pay at a restaurant during the last 5 years. It really depends where you are located.

by kyriakos

4/22/2025 at 4:12:19 PM

never once used my phone either.

arguably, I don't want to. I have a credit card, I have cash. I have no reason to use a phone esp. in a situation where I have people literally waiting on me.

why do I tip these people if I have to do it all myself? might as well just order at the counter using my phone

by red-iron-pine

4/22/2025 at 4:49:47 PM

You don't have to tip.

Believe it or not, most servers/staff at restaurants that do QR code and self-bussing don't care if you tip.

by chneu

4/22/2025 at 2:24:37 PM

This has been my experience in the US, too. I was in Vancouver a few weeks ago, though, and tap to pay was universal there. Even at nice restaurants, the waiter would bring a Square terminal to the table. It really sped things up at the end of the meal, and I liked it.

by el_benhameen

4/23/2025 at 4:56:40 AM

The less time people have for the 25+% suggested tip amounts to sink in the better I guess.

by abcd_f

4/22/2025 at 5:11:05 PM

Hm? It's literally double tapping the side button on my phone and holding it near their payment terminal for half a second until it says beep, exactly like with a debit card just slightly more convenient. Why would there be any fussing or apologising

by mort96

4/22/2025 at 10:37:56 PM

Since moving to Ireland 2 years ago, I've maybe had to reach for my wallet maybe 5 times in total. These days it remains in the car or forgotten at home.

I pay for evertything with my phone.

by beAbU

4/22/2025 at 10:49:23 PM

Where do you live? Nearly every sit down restaurant I have gone to for the last year or so, the waiter has come to the table with a portable tap-to-pay.

by dmd

4/22/2025 at 7:54:24 PM

Where are you? Even in a country as backwards banking wise as France I wrote say that 50% of people pay digitally, 49.9% cc and 0.1% cash.

by BrandoElFollito

4/22/2025 at 10:15:33 PM

Ooh,ooh, I know!

We can create an app that needs location data and microphone access so that it can automatically sit there and wait for us to say “check please” and it can turn on a BLE beacon that talks to the servers phone, which, running the app, has already linked to the tables phones and recorded the guests orders for the server.

The server can access the users tipping history, sort of a restaurant social credit score, and the users get to have their data harvested 24/7 to support the app’s seamless automatic functionality! It’s going to be great!

by K0balt

4/23/2025 at 12:04:47 AM

Not enough AI buzzwords in pitch. I’ll pass!

by Crosseye_Jack

4/24/2025 at 6:46:28 PM

If your lonely , with pods in ear ai will turn you into a server and get you the social interaction of " just the tip"

by ashoeafoot

4/23/2025 at 4:09:59 AM

Fine. We will collect all the customer - server interaction to build training data for vision language action models, so we can replace waitstaff with robots, disrupting the lower middle class and college students!

by K0balt

4/23/2025 at 5:54:16 AM

We won't stop there - we will rehire all those disrupted workers but only on a gig basis! Now you can work when you want, with as little health insurance as you can afford!

by lubujackson

4/23/2025 at 11:27:47 AM

The apps will of course show ads to the customer while they are waiting for the bill. The app may delay sending the signal sometimes to ensure full ad time.

by Eddy_Viscosity2

4/23/2025 at 2:43:53 PM

Unless you pay for premium!

by K0balt

4/22/2025 at 2:17:44 PM

> The waiter brings over the bill, in a black rectangular wallet, and walks away.

This is when you pay, just have your card or whatever ready to go. Skip the extra limbo state and leave when you're ready.

by hashmap

4/22/2025 at 2:29:01 PM

I like this solution the best because it is the least intrusive. Before the waiter brings the bill, put your phone on the table so it's ready when they arrive with the bill. No need for the waitstaff to waste cycles or get distracted by having to look for a green card.

by wyclif

4/22/2025 at 2:36:17 PM

In the US you constantly have to beg the waitstaff to stick around. They show up and ask if you want water. If you don’t deliberately say “we are also ready to order drinks” they will then disappear. When they take the drink order, you have to deliberately say “we’ll order food now.” If you order appetizers, they will disappear unless you immediately continue with your main course order. Then of course there’s the whole multiple trip song and dance when you pay. Are waiters paid by the step rather than by the hour?

by ryandrake

4/22/2025 at 2:52:07 PM

Speaking as a former wait person…

It is more efficient this way. Often times the wait person may have multiple tables sat at the same time. This way they can greet each table shortly after sitting (you don’t want to know how people react if they wait “too long” for that first greeting). Then take drink orders for all tables, get those delivered, take apps, get those fired. While those are cooking, get the mains ordered, and so on.

Yes, some people want to order all at once. However, that’s not most guests. Most folks want to sit at the table and relax for 1.5 - 2 hours and hate feeling rushed.

I don’t think most people realize how hard a job it is to wait tables. I think everyone would be well served by working as a wait person in their early work years.

by sundaeofshock

4/22/2025 at 6:08:34 PM

Or retail, in some fashion, to see how it is from that side of the store.

by fragmede

4/22/2025 at 2:40:18 PM

A good waiter will ask you if you're ready to order at each stage.

by wyclif

4/22/2025 at 2:30:28 PM

This is exactly what I do. I highly recommend the practice.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 2:17:38 PM

I'm fond of New Zealand, where you either pay as you walk out or the waiter brings you a mobile POS. There's no awkward 'take my credit card, walk away with it, and bring it back' moment. It's a much better system, and I would love to see it more common in the US.

by nlanier

4/22/2025 at 2:24:50 PM

Do waiters really walk off with your credit card in America? I'd never want to let my credit card out of my sight, let alone let some guy I don't know take it from me

by voidUpdate

4/22/2025 at 2:38:58 PM

Cash is vastly vastly preferred for restaurants in the USA by both sides.

This is also has the advantage that if for whatever reason it is impossible to pay because all the servers have disappeared and no is up front, you can just calculate out the bill+tax+tip from the prices in the menu, lay it on the table, and leave.

Most the problems around credit/phones revolve around the fact that restaurants are operating around customs and inertia of the cash system, and awkwardly injecting other collection methods into this routine, personally I don't bother fighting it.

by ty6853

4/22/2025 at 3:54:34 PM

> Cash is vastly vastly preferred for restaurants in the USA by both sides.

What two sides are you referencing? I can't fathom that customers is one of those sides. Cash is just about my least preferred method, maybe second only to writing a check.

by baseballdork

4/22/2025 at 4:51:31 PM

Cash is my favorite way to pay. I'm with you about checks, though. I haven't even had a checkbook for 20 years or so.

by JohnFen

4/23/2025 at 10:20:43 AM

For the wait staff, cash has the great advantage that it is up to the staff to report tips to the IRS. For everyone else?

I do carry cash, and probably use cash more than someone younger would, but for restaurant bills beyond the burger and brew range I tend to use a credit card. Once one gets into the white-tablecloth world, bills are beyond the amount of cash I usually carry.

by cafard

4/22/2025 at 2:33:07 PM

> Do waiters really walk off with your credit card in America?

Some places still do, but most places I've been to post-pandemic have the servers carrying handheld POS terminals and do it tableside.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 2:38:45 PM

I’ve only ever seen this outside the US. Everywhere I eat, they do the traditional “disappear with the credit card” song and dance.

by ryandrake

4/22/2025 at 11:24:40 PM

Same here. The table side reader thing is something I only see at maybe 1 in 10 restaurants in my part of the U.S. During the pandemic there was a big uptick in “pay by QR code” but that seems to have gotten much less popular (I believe the extra fees charged by Toast and similar are no longer deemed worth it by restaurants).

by sgerenser

4/22/2025 at 3:12:10 PM

They used to elsewhere, as well. In most European countries chip and pin became ~mandatory around the turn of the century, which made it impossible.

For various reasons the US was very slow to adopt chip-based cards, and even when it did they were usually chip and sig. It was also slow to adopt tap to pay (likely because mobile terminals were less of a thing, because chip and pin was not a thing); it only _really_ took off when Apple and Google kinda forced the issue by putting it in phones.

by rsynnott

4/23/2025 at 2:30:14 AM

I believe you may have it slightly backwards.

I think Apple and Google released their implementations when they did exactly because the US credit card companies moved over to EMV (tap and pay) standard.

There was a “liability shift” [1] that happened nearly a decade ago after many high profile card database leakage events (target retail stores being one).

The shift was that instead of credit card companies always accepting the liability for stolen cards, the policies were changed so that retailers that still used magnetic stripes would have to accept liability (because with magnetic stripes, the same card number is used everywhere). Or they could avoid it by moving to chip and wireless readers, since these protocols used a different virtual card number for every transaction.

As card holders, we all started getting our banks sending us new chip and wireless cards before Apple Pay came out.

1: https://squareup.com/us/en/the-bottom-line/operating-your-bu...

by atonse

4/23/2025 at 7:33:40 AM

> exactly because the US credit card companies moved over to EMV (tap and pay) standard.

That's not what EMV is, or, at least, while most tap and pay cards are EMV (besides some 90s oddities in Europe), EMV long predates tap and pay (it's from the 1980s).

Most US cards were EMV (chip and sig, usually, not chip and pin), _long_ before Apple/Google Pay came out, but usually did not support tap to pay, which is a separate standard also falling under EMV (the terminology is kinda unhelpful).

by rsynnott

4/24/2025 at 1:28:02 AM

Thanks for the clarification!

by atonse

4/22/2025 at 2:31:01 PM

I don't like it either, but yes they still do (although to be fair it is getting rarer by the day). One thing to keep in mind though, is that if it's a reputable place there isn't really any need to worry. It's shadier places you have to watch out for.

by wyclif

4/22/2025 at 3:02:30 PM

This used to be normal in a lot of the world, which is pretty wild. Lots of weird changes like this, Floppy Disks, "Appointment Television", home phone numbers ...

For most of recorded human history literacy was rare. A typical Roman citizen could not read, certainly beyond the ability to understand a handful of marks or make their name. By the nineteenth century it is entirely unremarkable that Patrick Brontë's daughters are taught to read and write, but it is also entirely unremarkable that several of them† died of TB since at the time we didn't know a cure for it.

† It's contested whether, for example, Charlotte died of TB, it probably didn't help.

by tialaramex

4/22/2025 at 2:26:06 PM

I'm kind of digging the QR code on a receipt where I just pay from my phone's browser, get emailed a receipt, and I leave at my leisure. Been seeing this around busier places in the US though still pretty rare.

by xeromal

4/22/2025 at 2:20:28 PM

Same in the Netherlands. And also the ridiculous QR-code DIY waiter thing doesn't really take on, luckily.

by rapnie

4/22/2025 at 7:09:49 PM

Nearly all US restaurants I've been recently use a mobile POS.

by insane_dreamer

4/22/2025 at 9:11:47 PM

When the bill arrives you already knew it was coming since you requested it. So you could have simply had your payment method ready. Then you look at the number and pay it. As adults do.

To make clear that you want to make the payment immediately in case this wasn't already obvious, one could use speech: I'd like to pay now.

That's the system.

In the exceptional and unlikely scenario where a waiter speeds away upon you wanting to pay, they aren't going to care about your green sticker system either.

If it takes forever for them to return, I drop cash on the table and leave. I'm not going to sit around for 20 mins and beg to collect my money.

by npc_anon

4/22/2025 at 2:21:54 PM

There's a paper bill in there. Place it poking out the top, just like you would have with paper money or a credit card.

No need for a new prop when there's already one handy.

by jmull

4/22/2025 at 2:31:10 PM

Here is what I do for credit card, I guess you can do the same for tap to pay with the same efficiency.

When the call the waiter to ask for the bill, or when you ask directly when he comes to take out your dishes or ask for dessert, just say directly how you will pay:

The bill please, I will pay by card (/phone)...

by greatgib

4/22/2025 at 2:34:37 PM

Not everything in life needs to be optimized with some system. Just politely wave at your waiter, wait for them, or pay at the cashier near the exit if you're in a hurry. Talk to people. Embrace the little chaos of life and the small imperfections that come with it.

by tunapizza

4/22/2025 at 8:51:18 PM

Yep, just really basic and fundamental socialization skills; but still a hurdle for many (which is a bit scary)

by kyleee

4/22/2025 at 2:29:23 PM

The real legacy is not the payment method, but this tipping culture that should be shutdowned.

The world has evolved and moved to decent fixed salaries.

Japan: amazing service, perfect food, 0 tips.

America: shitty burger joint, rude waiter, 20% tip or they chase you outside.

by rvnx

4/22/2025 at 6:23:22 PM

Also in Japan, when you need something? You just raise your hand and say "sumimasen". Instead of waiting forever or needing the wait service to constantly check in on you.

by uses

4/22/2025 at 2:31:41 PM

> 20% tip or they chase you outside

The tipping culture in the US is horrible, but not that horrible. I've never seen such a thing happen, anyway.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 2:34:53 PM

https://www.reddit.com/r/tipping/comments/1k4mjn0/manager_fo...

(fresh video, "funnily" a Japanese ramen restaurant, though I agree it's probably exceptional. At least, I hope)

by rvnx

4/22/2025 at 2:48:54 PM

I don't doubt that it happens from time to time (assholes are everywhere), but my point is that it's rare enough that I have never witnessed it or heard from any friends that they've witnessed it.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 4:52:49 PM

I'm an American and don't tip very often anymore. I've talked to folks who work at restaurants and this is pretty common. I also used to work in food service(8ish years).

If a place makes me bus my own table or use qr code ordering, I'm probably not tipping anymore.

I don't tip on pickup orders either. This is definitely becoming more common in the US.

by chneu

4/22/2025 at 11:26:28 AM

Some large chains have a miniature payment kiosk at each table. You just pay when you’re done and leave. Very convenient.

by whall6

4/22/2025 at 2:00:14 PM

Convenient, yes, but I hate those things so much that I avoid eating at restaurants that use them.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 2:16:03 PM

Idk what it is about them, but I'm with you

by spencerflem

4/22/2025 at 2:37:25 PM

For me, it's having a screen at the table that I find objectionable.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 4:15:05 PM

how often were you looking at your phone during that meal? cuz most people are terrible about it

by red-iron-pine

4/22/2025 at 4:54:18 PM

> how often were you looking at your phone during that meal?

Never. I also consider it extremely rude when people I'm dining with do this. It's even more irritating than those horrible table kiosks.

Fortunately, at least with my friends, that's not a thing that really happens much. Phones stay in pockets where they belong, generally speaking.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 2:14:15 PM

I don’t get it. Either say “I’m ready to pay now” when the bill is dropped off, or just flag the server down later when you are ready. What problem are we solving here?

by Skunkleton

4/22/2025 at 2:24:45 PM

A restaurant that's tech savvy enough to be able to pay-at-the-table-with-your-smartphone-via-applepay but somehow the bill they drop off at the table doesn't let you do so, requiring the server to scan your phone at the table.

Seems like a lot of fuss to avoid initiating contact with a human.

"Man up", Sebastian.

by inanutshellus

4/22/2025 at 2:22:13 PM

> for now I will resort to rather limply trying to catch a passing waiter's eye.

we are apparently solving the problem of anti-social and socially awkward people not wanting to talk to other people.

by VWWHFSfQ

4/22/2025 at 2:25:08 PM

s/solving/reinforcing/

by inanutshellus

4/22/2025 at 12:14:45 PM

I seem to be alone but I like the places where I order and pay on my phone and then they deliver to the table. For me it is the best experience.

by anonzzzies

4/22/2025 at 2:28:45 PM

I've done this a couple of times. One thing that's slightly awkward and could be refined is that it can't do "Girl menus".

At some fancy restaurants, they have two versions of their menus, the idea is that the person paying (who historically would be a man) gets a menu with prices, but people who aren't paying (historically wives, girlfriends and maybe children or clients) get the same list of dishes but no pricing.

In 2025 it's definitely not OK to assume that people who appear male are paying and people who appear not to be male are not - but it is very much possible that somebody is paying and some people are not, and so it would be nice if the person who is paying can delegate the choices but still pay and the systems I've seen do not facilitate this.

The kind of fancy place which historically had two menus (or maybe even still does although it probably pays to ask who gets which menus these days) this isn't a problem. Somewhere with a decent cellar and the sommelier to guide inexperienced users to a sensible choice is also going to have somebody just memorize what everybody is eating and if only a single person is paying for it all that's discretely handled, no problem.

But the place with a choice of red or white is going to expect phone ordering and it'd be nice if I could let other people choose what they're eating without also just handing them my phone or else expecting them to pay and then I refund it (which is embarrassing for them)

by tialaramex

4/23/2025 at 5:03:14 AM

I have never heard about this or seen it and I am in mh 50s who goes to fancy places. What bizarre craziness is this?

Anyway;I should have mentioned that it is not an ONLY pay like this, they also have menus and the normal way. Here (EU or at least where I live) this is not a cost saving thing; it came from covid and many people liked it so they kept it. But waiters and menus are back next to that. I prefer electronic as then I don't have to sit and wave for a waiter or the bill for 30 minutes. But other do whatever they want.

by anonzzzies

4/22/2025 at 2:43:11 PM

It seems so utterly bizarre to me that a restaurant will go through the trouble and expense of printing a separate set of menus where the only difference is that they contain less information. What a culture shock it would be to see this!

by ryandrake

4/22/2025 at 3:05:20 PM

I hadn't realised anywhere still did this, tbh. It is, at most, a niche within a niche that most people will never encounter. But tbh I thought it had died out entirely by the start of the century.

by rsynnott

4/22/2025 at 2:23:08 PM

I hate this to be honest, if only because it's never frictionless for me. At the very least I generally need to create an account and verify my phone number or email address, often they also want me to download some shitty app that doesn't work properly. I will actively prefer a place where I can just order and pay with a human like the old days.

by NoboruWataya

4/22/2025 at 2:48:39 PM

I would actively avoid any place that only allowed paying with a phone, app, or online account.

by ryandrake

4/23/2025 at 4:54:26 AM

I guess torching the concept because of the implementation is a thing but we now have quite a few places allowing this where I live (you can still pay cash and a human if you want at all of them), but none of them require an account or app; you just scan a qr on your table, order and pay like any online shop. There is no friction; at least if you have a smart phone and use it to order online. Maybe you only saw bad implementations. Why the hell would you need an account?

by anonzzzies

4/22/2025 at 2:38:33 PM

I strongly agree. This is perhaps the highest-friction way to order and pay.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 7:59:45 PM

maybe it depends on where you are and it definitely depends on the implementation; i just pay like i would pay for any online payment which is frictionless.

by anonzzzies

4/22/2025 at 2:14:42 PM

Phones have displaced paper money and credit cards as the preferred way to pay for a bill at the end of a meal.

In Europe maybe? I've never seen anyone pay with their phone. Not in big cities and not in rural areas in the US. I will never do financial transactions with my government spy device. To each their own obviously.

As for when I am ready to pay, I go to the counter and give them cash or I might use a debit card if I am picking up everyone's tab. If they give me grief then I simply do not return to that establishment and they will get negative reviews.

by LinuxBender

4/22/2025 at 2:22:56 PM

"Europe", well, I have news for you: Germany is stuck in early 90s of digitalization (where we print out mails since we always did it on paper), with some PoS infrastructure sprinkled on top.

by a3w

4/22/2025 at 2:30:58 PM

A debit card is ripe for fraud risk

by jncfhnb

4/22/2025 at 2:43:31 PM

I've only had one incident of someone trying to defraud me using my card in the last few decades and the card vendor instantly blocked it and texted me. I am obviously only one person but I have been careful where I use that card. If I suspect anything I just report it stolen and get another one. That only takes a few minutes at the bank. With exception to Amazon I only use it in places that everyone knows me and I know everyone. Most of the time I use cash, especially if buying anything the government may wish to track. I will never tie my fondle-slab to a financial institution. To many entities have access to it.

by LinuxBender

4/22/2025 at 4:25:39 PM

The counterpoint is this happened to me once. When I reported the fraud, the bank accused my wife of being unfaithful to me in another state and accused me of bank fraud for reporting the fraud, then they closed my checking account and denied the claim.

I probably could have taken them to small claims court but I ended up paying the amount as I was moving cross country to a different court jurisdiction so I wouldn't have defaulted in a suite and I didn't want to be blacklisted from banking.

by ty6853

4/22/2025 at 4:27:47 PM

And you’re still using debit cards?

by jncfhnb

4/22/2025 at 4:28:44 PM

Yes now I just put so small amount in my debit checking that I can afford to eat the loss.

by ty6853

4/22/2025 at 2:47:59 PM

Which is why I keep a burner bank account for debit transactions, have fun racking up felonies for a couple hundred bucks.

by ty6853

4/22/2025 at 4:26:34 PM

If that system works for you, great.

I don’t think I want a burner bank account lol.

by jncfhnb

4/24/2025 at 1:53:15 AM

Related story, In the US, so YMMV:

I tend to try to pay in advance when I order so I don’t have to wait 5-10 minutes to get a bill, then have them run off as I grab my payment method of choice, to wait another 5-10 minutes to actually pay.

I was a little confused how my requests to pay early seemed to slightly irritate waitstaff. So I asked some restraint owner friends of mine and they mentioned how, depending on the POS configuration, the act of requesting or paying the check (forgot which one) automatically queues up your table availability to the next guest.

So I guess, convenience workflow feature for the restaurant host impacts creates an annoyingly rigid behavioral pattern that unexpectedly passes “waiting frustration” on to diners.

by laomai

4/22/2025 at 2:14:32 PM

Point at the waiter and wave them over. A very low-tech solution.

by randysalami

4/22/2025 at 2:38:15 PM

Pointing at people is considered impolite in some cultures. I think it's better to raise your hand with an extended finger and then cross both your index fingers to signal "close out."

by wyclif

4/22/2025 at 7:15:06 PM

Have a little light on the table with a button you can push to summon the server.

This is similar to how in Brazilian churrascarias you have a red/green coaster that you flip green if you want the server to come around with more meat, and red, when you're done.

by insane_dreamer

4/22/2025 at 3:41:44 PM

A long time ago the signal used to be one hand it's scribbling in the air as if you were signing the bill

by readthenotes1

4/24/2025 at 5:40:07 AM

The way my wife currently does it (she's Asian) is that she uses her index fingers and thumbs to "air draw" a rectangle which I guess is supposed to represent a cheque

by wyclif

4/22/2025 at 2:58:02 PM

I'm pretty sure that in my part of the US, anyway, this would confuse people.

by JohnFen

4/22/2025 at 2:10:57 PM

In many Asian restaurants, it's common to have a cashier near the entrance. Your just pay your bill as you leave.

by jksflkjl3jk3

4/22/2025 at 2:16:33 PM

There's almost always a POS at the entrance of any restaurant, if nothing else for take out orders. If I have to wait more than a few minutes I just walk up and have someone ring me up. Maybe that messes up the order of things, I don't care.

by ty6853

4/22/2025 at 2:14:59 PM

I do this in the US and wonder why others dont. I noticed years ago all restaurants had registers up front anyway so I tried and they took my payment and everywhere else since is pretty much the same story.

by cut3

4/22/2025 at 2:15:00 PM

Most of the Mexican restaurants I've been to, you order at the counter and then they bring it to you. Just as nice, imo.

by spencerflem

4/23/2025 at 5:00:26 PM

Seems like a call-light/attendant button (like in healthcare & airlines respectively) would be fairly inexpensive and make dining experiences wildly more efficient. Diners always outnumber servers, it would be nice to just press a button and let them know they're needed instead of having to crane your neck around looking for them and trying to get them to notice you so you can ask for your bill (or whatever else you might have needed).

by pull_my_finger

4/22/2025 at 8:35:39 PM

I've only seen this at one place - a Japanese restaurant in Boulder, CO. Each table has a small red button with a weighted base, right next to the soy sauce and cube of extra gari.

You press the button, a server appears a few seconds later. Need to order, press the button. Need water, press the button. Need the check, press the button. Need for them to pick up credit card, press the button. I love it; it's like a flight attendant call button and I never have to wait for anything.

by felixnm

4/22/2025 at 3:10:38 PM

In EU waiter asks "cash or card?" when you ask for a bill, then brings both bill and the terminal, then you pay with a phone (just like 99% of others) and the whole process is done fast and smooth. No USA/Israel nonsense about taking your card to some back room and doing something with it. In fact, I don't really remember where my actual plastic cards are. Probably in a wallet, but can be in the desk drawer too, I've never used them for past 2 or 3 years.

by Yizahi

4/22/2025 at 2:39:24 PM

It's becoming quite common in S Korea for there to be a fixed tablet on a stand at each table. You order from the digital menu and then immediately pay with the integrated PoS. If there's no tablet you pay on your way out. There's a button at each table to summon the waiter. No tips.

Japan has ticket vending machines in many restaurants. You prepay and order at the front of the restaurant, it prints a little ticket, and you give that to the waiter or kitchen.

by timtimmy

4/22/2025 at 2:29:27 PM

QR codes are great for this. Optional, and let's me Irish goodbye when I'm done with my food.

I've been to several restaurants with this.

by 999900000999

4/22/2025 at 2:30:07 PM

Sorry what's the actual problem here?

by nixass

4/22/2025 at 4:56:54 PM

This whole thing seems to be related to people having weird expectations and odd requirements.

Reading people's expectations in here is absolutely wild and reminds me of how weirdly entitled people become when they're paying for something.

by chneu

4/22/2025 at 4:35:41 PM

Chili's solved it... I don't like the restaurant too much but their payment experience rocks. There is a payment gadget at the table, so you use that to pay and simply walk away without talking to the waiter.

by glimshe

4/22/2025 at 4:51:18 PM

This is literally what a QR code is but you use your own phone.

Chilis didn't solve it. They just added their own hardware.

by chneu

4/24/2025 at 9:56:24 AM

I can pay using a physical credit card, which is what I prefer, or my phone.

by glimshe

4/25/2025 at 2:49:17 AM

you can do that with the QR code. It literally just takes you to a POS menu, the same one the staff will use to ring you up. lol. You can use your phone or a physical card, it's no different. The only difference is you're swiping your card thru a terminal vs filling it in on a form, which most phones do automatically.

by chneu

4/22/2025 at 2:25:49 PM

Very strange. Not only do I never see people using a phone being used to pay at full service restaurants but what happened to the lowest-tech solution of all - wave at the nearest person to come over and settle the bill.

by doodaddy

4/22/2025 at 11:13:58 PM

Orr just put the mobile payment terminal on the table, with the amount, a tip prompt without a hovering waiter, and leave when you're done paying.

by kylehotchkiss

4/22/2025 at 2:30:29 PM

I always wanted a system with an NFC chip embedded into the receipt holder. Just tap my phone, pull up my receipt on a web page, and checkout with Apple Pay.

by gsibble

4/22/2025 at 4:57:50 PM

That's what a QR code does. You can checkout with card, apple, or Google pay. You just scan a code that has your table number in it.

by chneu

4/22/2025 at 11:26:23 AM

"I've tried laying my phone over the receipt, but it just doesn't work."

Nevertheless, this is the answer, and much better than the proposed colored card.

by damnitbuilds

4/23/2025 at 4:47:05 AM

Push your plate two inches away. It is almost imperceptible but you’d be surprised what the eye will notice.

by more_corn

4/22/2025 at 7:52:46 PM

We have more land more qrcodes imprinted to tables in France. It usually works :)

This way you pay on your phone and just show it when leaving.

by BrandoElFollito

4/22/2025 at 2:16:07 PM

in turkiye, most of the places bring the "black rectangular wallet" open; so you can fill it in with cash/credit card and then close it. when it is closed it queues that your payment is ready. so there is an already established non-verbal queue without color codes or so. it also follows the verbal usage of open check and closed check per se.

by boraalparat

4/22/2025 at 2:24:10 PM

At Case Bonita in Denver, you have a flag on your table you can raise to signal to the waiter to come over.

by mattvr

4/22/2025 at 2:31:19 PM

Came here to post this lol. I've seen "raise the little mexican flag on your table for service" at a lot of places and I think it's brilliant.

by pram

4/22/2025 at 2:27:05 PM

when the waiter first comes to the table, you listen for their name and remember it. at the end of the meal, you raise your hand, state their name and when they look your way, cross your two index fingers to indicate "close out".

by darod

4/22/2025 at 7:04:35 PM

I'm ready to pay when I get up and walk over to the cashier.

by mvdtnz

4/23/2025 at 3:42:45 AM

> The waiter asks if you want dessert, but you decline... and feeling somewhat guilty you hurriedly justify this rebuke by explaining how you over-ordered

Is the article meant to be a light-hearted little piece that is not meant to be taken seriously? Or is this "guilt" for not ordering dessert a real thing??

by sameerds

4/22/2025 at 2:17:32 PM

Bring a credit card.

by eweise