alt.hn

4/3/2025 at 2:04:03 AM

Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/03/31/immigration-h1b-fear-siliconvalley/

by prtaylor

4/3/2025 at 3:34:49 AM

It's what their lawyers are advising them.

The Globe and Mail had a piece on March 25th on the advice that lawyers were giving to their clients, often Canadians working on TN visas down south:

> York-based immigration law firm Dyer Harris LLP, which helps foreigners secure work visas in the U.S., sent an e-mail to their clients residing and working in the country to hold off on international travel altogether, unless in an emergency.

Lawyers advise Canadians working in U.S. to avoid travel amid border crackdown, The Globe and Mail, 2025-03-25. https://web.archive.org/web/20250325223021/https://www.thegl...

by murphyslab

4/3/2025 at 3:56:11 AM

Yeah I run a startup accelerator out of the back of a Canadian law firm, saw a note from the GC of the firm reminding the lawyers not to do non-essential work cross border and to take firm issued blank laptops and phones across. Clearly being taken seriously.

by neom

4/3/2025 at 3:31:03 AM

Given all the remote work tech that the pandemic helped mature, the answer seems obvious.

by xfp

4/3/2025 at 4:38:15 AM

Seems but isn't due to the way taxation/jurisdiction/licensure works. Where you are doing your work from and where the benefactor of that work are make a big difference. Example: Doctors can't telehealth over State lines. Lawyers likewise. Employers aren't supposed to allow migrant workers to work from across state lines from their address of record.

A great deal of draconian control is actually implemented through employment and licensure law, and as with most things in real life, come bundled with a surprising amount of detail. Part of why I've become particularly dissatisfied with the U.S. as of late, as so much of it is predicated on actually keeping you locked into one geographical location.

by salawat

4/3/2025 at 4:46:09 AM

Doctors can definitely telehealth through state lines, they only need to get license approval from the specific states.

by mlinhares

4/3/2025 at 9:12:17 AM

I believe it depends on the state. I'm not positive but my therapist friends can only operate in certain states remotely.

by chneu

4/3/2025 at 6:06:55 AM

> so much of it is predicated on actually keeping you locked ino one geographical location.

Most of the digital nomad hubs have the same laws with regards to worker protections and tax residency; they're just too poor to enforce them. The same is true of the workers themselves. In the 2010s I remember seeing a lot of guys bragging about having virtual assistants in the Philippines. This was probably illegal on both sides of the transaction the way that they had it set up, the issue is that the people working these jobs do not have the resources to pursue a case against a US-based employer; that's assuming they have the knowledge and motivation necessary to sue the employer in the first place. I'm not as libertarian as I once was, but these kinds of arrangements are a no-brainer; it's all of the upside of the free movement of labor with none of the downside of that labor being physically relocated.

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 2:39:56 AM

I'm super interested to see what the next HN thread with that proberts lawyer dude is like.

I found the commentary in the last post from him to be pretty meagre, whether it was because people were afraid to talk about this kind of stuff or they just didn't know, I'm not sure, but it seems like reality is quickly setting in for a lot of people in the US.

Things are changing and they're changing fast.

You won't be able to ignore this forever.

by Teever

4/3/2025 at 2:41:38 AM

The most interesting thing I see is people overestimate how resilient the system is. Unfortunately, this is at the whim of a president, who with a majority in the court, dictates the law. With a ban or at his whim, even legal residents can find themselves out. We tend to think the system is resilient to this, but ultimately it really isn't. Scholars cannot even agree on whether these tech workers are entitled to the amendments (since they are not citizens, despite living in the US). Much of this was eye opening for me, and is used by Rubio as a basis to deport the Korean girl and the Columbia guy (also a Harvard student as of yesterday). The law is unfortunately very vague and thus open to interpretation (which is ultimately subject to the commander in chief, the current clown)

by MPSFounder

4/3/2025 at 4:23:23 AM

Its not like immigrants have had wonderful, controllable and predictable paths to residency in the past. For those who arent Einstein or belong to the over rated HN crowd, the system has always be exploitative. Anyone who isnt born rich and has been through the process has had to live with constant fear, doubt and uncertainty.

by nxhxgs

4/3/2025 at 4:34:01 AM

+1. This.

As an alien you would have generally been extra wary of your behavior. Civil disobedience and dedication to political action is not what you should expect of an average alien.

Some natural born citizens seem to have been introduced to the immigrant experience yesterday.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 1:53:12 PM

100% agree with civil disobedience being high risk. And it always has been for immigrants. But writing articles in a newspaper? Criticizing domestic or particular foreign governments? If immigrants can't exercise purely expressive speech something is drastically fucked up.

by SauciestGNU

4/3/2025 at 2:52:28 PM

Rubio affirmatively suggested the op-ed is not why she got deported. Nothing happened to her co-authors.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 4:03:31 PM

Rubio can say what he wants but there's no record of her doing anything else and he's a proven liar. If it was something else let them allege it. There isn't.

I haven't checked, but perhaps the other authors were citizens?

by SauciestGNU

4/3/2025 at 4:59:11 PM

They might have been citizens. He is a well-known liar. It most certainly is the op-ed. I know for a fact the Adelsons made contributions to the campaign for this single issue (they are fanatically Jewish and donate to Israel exorbitant amounts out of religiosity). The irony is they made their fortunes in gambling... Due process would have our gov lay out explicitly why she and others were arrested, but Thugs will behave as thugs until a bigger bully comes around

by MPSFounder

4/3/2025 at 4:40:50 AM

I emigrated to the US as a fiancée. It was not necessarily easy or cheap (I'm agreeing with you) and I came from a "low visa fraud risk country" (Australia). Some of the challenges faced:

It probably cost around $30,000 all up. Every visit to a consular office or USCIS cost about $100 in biometrics alone (each time). Fees for applying, fees for adjustments.

My partner and I had an issue where I was supporting her (she was in school). The system is not set up for that, and expects the US citizen to be financially supporting their prospective spouse. I realize that there are challenges around our situation in terms of providing a financial benefit to a USC that could be construed as paying for a visa.

I was interviewing for jobs in the US from Australia as my move date got closer (after the visa was approved). Siemens nearly torpedoed things when they wanted to start a H-1B or other visa app for me even after being repeatedly told I didn't need one.

My fiancees family ended up having to sponsor me, signing declarations of financial responsibility, that they could be made to repay any government benefit I claimed within the first 10 years of living here (tied to that previous issue).

Some of the evidentiary requirements (bona fide relationship) were reasonable and actually quite clever (separated, and asked questions like who usually does dishes, or takes out trash, and what day is trash day for that matter, and beyond) and others were onerous (I had to pay BoA an exorbitant amount to get all bank statements for 3 years, copied and notarized).

In the end, ironically we determined I would have been "adjusted" to a unconditional LPR more quickly, and more cheaply, if I had come here on a visa waiver, promising not to get married, and just got married and said "oops, my bad, can I be converted anyway?" than actually doing it the right way.

by FireBeyond

4/3/2025 at 4:55:10 AM

Actually USCIS pretty much has blessed your VWP "loophole"

> "INA section 245(c)(4) renders aliens admitted under the VWP ineligible to adjust status to that of a person admitted for permanent residence. This provision, however, includes an exception for immediate relatives of U.S. citizens. Thus, an individual admitted under the VWP who is also an immediate relative is not precluded from seeking adjustment of status, even after the VWP period has expired."[1]

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/memos/201...

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 5:03:42 AM

As lesbians, do you think it would be more difficult for you under Trump? Was this before or after Australia legalized same-sex marriage seven years ago?

by kragen

4/3/2025 at 3:34:14 PM

My partner would initially find it difficult to learn that I, who she has known forever as a cisgender heterosexual male, am in fact a lesbian...

by FireBeyond

4/3/2025 at 4:06:06 PM

the confusion was caused by you using the term fiancée, which is the female form. the male form is fiancé

by em-bee

4/3/2025 at 5:37:23 PM

Oops, there I go, trying to be too smart for my own good.

by FireBeyond

4/3/2025 at 3:06:16 AM

> The law is unfortunately very vague and thus open to interpretation (which is ultimately subject to the commander in chief, the current clown)

That is it exactly. The US legal/governmental system is a house of cards that has been running for at least 150 years on a bunch of wink-wink-nudge-nudge assumptions that both sides were too scared to test or even acknowledge. An ounce of prevention might have been worth a pound of cure, but now we'll need the cure, and it's probably going to be painful.

by BrenBarn

4/3/2025 at 3:46:20 AM

This isn't unique to modern American history. Literally all of human civilization meets this criteria. It's all based on a collective acceptance of rules, titles, borders, property. All of which are completely imaginary.

by tootie

4/3/2025 at 3:30:21 AM

> both sides were too scared to test or even acknowledge

I think that’s harsh. I think the folks in government generally believed that the opposition was there in good faith and with the intent of strengthening the nation, even if they disagreed on how.

I don’t think that’s the case any longer and institutions based on good faith don’t work when the group in power is willing to light everything on fire.

by jmye

4/3/2025 at 4:55:00 AM

To an extent that's true, but those good-faith assumptions are sort of what I mean by wink-wink-nudge-nudge. It's like a bunch of people working in an office with a bunch of high explosives lying around. Having "good faith" that no one will set them off is another way of saying you'd rather not actually acknowledge or fix the problem.

Also, it's harder to believe it was all good faith unless you ignore some quite egregious earlier situations that pretty clearly showed that festering issues were being swept under the rug.

Most obviously, after the Civil War the South was placed under military occupation. In 1877 it was ended as part of a political bargain, whereupon the South resumed the racist policies it had previously had in place, and which had been supposedly banned by the reconstruction amendments and laws. It should have been obvious to people at the time that many people in the South had not learned their lesson, and perhaps military occupation and strict enforcement of reconstruction would have been necessary for decades more.

The willingness of both parties to condone outrageous gerrymanders over decades also indicates a shared desire to look the other way rather than face the dangerous implications head-on.

by BrenBarn

4/3/2025 at 4:39:01 AM

I recall McCain in 2008 telling a republican supporter that Obama was a decent person and they shouldn't be afraid if he won.

Things have escalated quickly and recently.

by riffraff

4/3/2025 at 4:47:03 AM

2008 was a long time ago, and it was notable at the time because it was already contrary to the overall trend of partisan polarization, which had been consistently escalating since the end of the long period of overlapping realignments that started in the 1930s and settled out in the 1990s. (Political polarization had been high in much of that realignment period, but because the major parties weren't coherently aligned around the high-salience issues that divided the public, that polarization was not strongly partisan.)

by dragonwriter

4/3/2025 at 4:41:37 AM

i think this is a key point, and this is why this problem will remain until we make some drastic changes.

to look at a completely different example: the internet was designed on good faith. year after year more things have been put into place to protect against those not operating in good faith. proof of work against AI bots is just the latest example.

what is really needed is a change in education. we need to teach the next generation that operating in good faith is absolutely essential for the future of mankind. we can no longer assume that good faith is the default. it isn't any more.

by em-bee

4/3/2025 at 4:57:23 AM

I tend to think that, unfortunately, it's the other way around. What we need to teach the next generation is that good faith, while still to be treasured, cannot be relied on, and we must be prepared to unflinchingly root out bad actors and forcibly prevent them from making things worse for people.

by BrenBarn

4/3/2025 at 5:26:19 AM

rooting out bad actors is most effectively done by proper education to keep them from becoming bad actors in the first place. any other approach in rooting out bad actors risks judgement errors and should only be applied in the most egregious of cases. and even there the approach should be: "look, you may mean well, but your actions hurt to many people, and therefore we must reject your approach and tell you to stop"

by em-bee

4/3/2025 at 7:22:00 AM

> rooting out bad actors is most effectively done by proper education to keep them from becoming bad actors in the first place.

But that's not rooting out bad actors, it's preventing bad actors. The problem with betting the farm on education is that bad actors who already exist will sabotage your efforts in order to lock in their gains. There has to be some plan for actually neutralizing the people who have already become bad actors and can't be "fixed" with education.

by BrenBarn

4/3/2025 at 4:51:22 AM

not to be harsh but let me tell you, this is bullshit, there's only rule of law if most people accept it. its all ink in paper, the moment someone tries to subvert or pretend it doesn't exist and there are no consequences the "law" is irrelevant.

the laws only exist to the extent that the people that "control" it are willing to exert it. for instance, at any other point in time, everyone involved in the signal-gate scandal would have been fired (and i bet if you were an actual army officer you would still be fired) but the people that enforce the rules can just pretend this isn't a problem and move on.

there is no crime if no one is interested in sending you to jail.

by mlinhares

4/3/2025 at 5:18:28 AM

but this is the problem. we lost good faith. but we can't continue down this road. it will end in a bureaucratic nightmare.

laws can only cover the excesses. if you make laws to detailed then the enforcement of those laws will become to expensive and that will make them even less likely to be enforced. one example are social benefits. it has been argued (i don't know in which country) that being less strict in who gets benefits would save more money than the loss caused by those who should not receive them.

NIMBYism is also an outgrowth of that. another example, in germany large scale projects are taking decades and cost 10 times as much as planned because people are not acting in good faith. the US is not far behind in some areas. (the high speed rail project in california comes to mind)

yes, you can't rely on people acting in good faith. but there was a time when you could. and we need to get back to that.

by em-bee

4/3/2025 at 6:30:07 AM

>what is really needed is a change in education. we need to teach the next generation that operating in good faith is absolutely essential for the future of mankind.

How can mankind have any future at all, when education is one of the tools used to indoctrinate children into not wanting children of their own someday? The first priority of any society/civilization must always be that of making the next generation of people... or else that society/civilization will soon cease to exist. And we no longer hold that as a priority. Whatever the solution might be, I do not think that it can use the education system, in whole or in part, without serious reform of the sort that would frighten those who most want to use it.

Furthermore, it may be the case that our particular nation is composed of two distinct groups who no longer have enough common values that we can effectively remain a singular nation. At least not without one coming to dominate the other decisively. Which is unfortunate given that there are many foreign powers that would take advantage of any possible divorce, amicable or hostile.

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 7:23:04 AM

> How can mankind have any future at all, when education is one of the tools used to indoctrinate children into not wanting children of their own someday? The first priority of any society/civilization must always be that of making the next generation of people... or else that society/civilization will soon cease to exist. And we no longer hold that as a priority. Whatever the solution might be, I do not think that it can use the education system, in whole or in part, without serious reform of the sort that would frighten those who most want to use it.

Education is in no way indoctrinating children into not wanting children.

You are conflating education with the current economical system, which uses education to have a trained workforce to generate value for companies. It's this system that is pushing people to not want kids, when kids are expensive in terms of time and money, where people work under a system that attempts to extract as much time as possible for production, it's just natural people won't be feeling any higher drive to have kids of their own.

You are blaming education while the issue is much more pervasive and systemic, we live in a world of abundant goods but precarious labour, we produce a lot but don't feel safe nor relaxed enough to tackle one of the most stressful events in someone's life.

Just look at workaholic societies like South Korea and Japan, societal pressures around earning money to support a family, showing status about your job, keeping a career as a mom, etc. eventually completely remove any desire to start families.

by piva00

4/3/2025 at 12:33:20 PM

absolutely. i just saw a documentary about that. south korea has a birthrate of 0.72. in a few generations the country will be full of elders in poverty because the pension funds have run out of money and there are not enough workers to replenish the funds.

https://youtu.be/Ufmu1WD2TSk

by em-bee

4/3/2025 at 2:25:39 PM

>Just look at workaholic societies like South Korea and Japan, societal pressures around earning money to support a family,

So, if we check the unemployed in Japan, they will be baby daddies to six or seven children? It's not workaholism.

>Education is in no way indoctrinating children into not wanting children.

You understand that this sounds like a lie not because I watch Fox News, but rather because I've had the kids come home telling me about how they were taught that the most important thing that they could do to lower their carbon footprint was to not have children, but that "adoption was just as good"? Granted, I'd agree that it's almost certainly not some official written policy somewhere, but the indoctrination is real and personally witnessed. And it's not just that, there are other examples.

>You are conflating education with the current economical system, which uses education to have a trained workforce to

If that were ever true, it hasn't been so since your grandparent's time. We don't need a workforce, not enough industry left to require it. Should I just ignore the fallacy where "education system" means whatever is most convenient for your argument rather than the government bureaucracy and social institution that always tends to have "education" either in the agency's name itself or in its official purpose?

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 3:12:42 PM

I've had the kids come home telling me about how they were taught that the most important thing that they could do to lower their carbon footprint was to not have children

ugh. i understand that this sentiment is going around. but i don't think it is coming from the school or the curriculum. it is more likely a teacher sharing their personal, misguided, opinion.

We don't need a workforce, not enough industry left to require it

that doesn't change the fact that companies demand trained employees. it's not just industry. every sector demands that employees are handed to them full of experience in their trade. companies don't want to invest into training themselves.

likewise parents demand that children finish school ready to get hired into well paid jobs.

by em-bee

4/3/2025 at 8:27:03 PM

>i understand that this sentiment is going around. but i don't think it is coming from the school or the curriculum.

I do not claim I saw it in a textbook. But it was spoken by an adult, by a teacher, and there is no evidence that in my case this opinion was ever discouraged. Furthermore, it played into a form of indoctrination that is now official policy (fight climate change!), and the views are prevalent and encouraged in various colleges of education where these teachers are trained.

To claim that just because it wasn't typed out on school district letterhead and filed with the state that it's not official policy is asinine.

>it is more likely a teacher sharing their personal, misguided, opinion.

That's also bullshit. In another thread on another day, that opinion could be expressed here on Hacker News, and it would be applauded. Climate change is real, it must be tackled using every available tool, etc etc. On reddit, it wouldn't just be applauded, they'd hold a parade and invite the person who said it to the Superbowl with free box seat tickets.

It's not personal, it is a growing consensus among that sort of personality and I'm told that once us old boomers are all senile the people who hold this opinion will all be taking over.

>that doesn't change the fact that companies demand trained employees.

Yes, and China, India, and the rest of Asia are happy to provide those for the companies' overseas locations. And have been happy to do so since the early 1990s if not before.

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 5:55:07 PM

Dude I live in a hyper red state. The majority of people I know have basically the same common values as friends in Santa Cruz. Now switch to talk in 'propagandized' terms and it switches to extreme, but remove that and just talk and there isn't much difference.

They want immigrants gone, but every immigrant they know is hardworking good people and THEY should be allowed to stay.

They want crime tougher but their friend who fell out of the world because of fent/mexis they wish could get help not prison.

They want capitalism but love their communal national forests and depend on it's deer/elk meat as a huge (normally the majority) source of their protein.

They want smaller government/less government services. But their mom is dependant on government services, and their cousin with a disabled kid wouldn't survive without government help/the school specialized help so that is needed/valued, and when they were kids were dependant at points on government food programs so those are needed.

But one party talks down to them, says they live in flyover country, and promotes people like Jon Stewart unfairly skewering people they see as like them as it's 'entertainment', while the other party pretends it thinks they have value. So they choose the party, eat up the propaganda, that treats them like people/with at least some dignity.

by _DeadFred_

4/3/2025 at 8:34:55 PM

>They want immigrants gone, but every immigrant they know is hardworking good people

Immigrants are, in large part, hard-working and decent people. I'd laugh my ass off at the suggestion that I could outwork any day laborer I've seen as I drive past Home Depot. Some drink and get a little rowdy, but not to a degree that would bother me if a citizen did so. That doesn't mean that I'm happy for them to be here, though. Our costs go up as they need to rent and make purchases too. Just because I don't want to pick apples for a living doesn't mean that their presence doesn't mean fewer jobs for Americans in general. Our culture changes in ways that can't be managed. None of these side effects are the sort that can be mitigated without drastically reducing immigration, both of the legal and illegal sort.

I don't really want the Chinese setting up secret police stations in my country, or blackmailing every immigrant (even those naturalized as our own citizens) to perform espionage on their behalf. Russians do this shit too. Do you?

All the rest of your concerns I suspect I'm more in agreement with you, but the immigration thing isn't good for anyone. These countries are being brain-drained by those who could fix things at home. Who could stop wars and other large-scale abuses. Who could be building the businesses that would life their people out of poverty. But they're over here trying to make a buck.

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 3:25:54 AM

The truth is much of it could have been prevented (court packing was one idea that might have been unpopular, but there are many other ideas that could have been acted upon). We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. Had Ruth Ginsberg been pressured to retire after her numerous health issues, Roe v Wade would never have been overturned (it was a 1 vote swing). Had primaries occurred, I believe the current guy (a felon) would have lost. There were many mistakes, which had they been addressed through any action (literally anything), could most certainly have been prevented. And this time around, it seems actual executive orders are shaping a very different America (that will require generations to undo). Early this week, a college program I am involved in (for STEM high school students over the summer) was cut. It was heartbreaking getting an email inquiring on why it is no longer on our website. Also it is the same song (the guy had travel bans his first admin, and is doing it again in different forms and to a wider range of individuals. We had four years to make these things difficult, but we did nothing). Holding paddles at state of unions seems to be widely believed among Democratic leadership to be effective, and there lies the issue.

by MPSFounder

4/3/2025 at 4:19:37 AM

> We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade.

While that's not completely wrong, I find it fascinating that everyone seems to treat the Republican party as having no culpability. We have a Republican party that's had a policy goal of blowing up the government for a half century with varying levels of how far they were willing to take it, but it's the Democratic party's fault for not saving us from them and the voters that support them.

by atmavatar

4/3/2025 at 4:24:33 AM

Well if the adults don't put up a toddler gate, who's fault is it when the toddler falls down the stairs?

by OccamsMirror

4/3/2025 at 5:49:20 AM

Republicans are not toddlers. If an alcoholic adult falls on stairs, itnis not fault of his wife.

by watwut

4/3/2025 at 6:16:01 AM

'Twas just a tongue in cheek explanation.

by OccamsMirror

4/3/2025 at 4:42:57 AM

I mean, I think most people who say this do think the Republicans are more to blame. It's just that they also think the Republicans are beyond hope so there's no point attempting to make them feel guilty.

Also we as humans tend to assign a different flavor of blame to people who do bad things than to people who claim to be preventing them while not actually doing so. If a criminal is holding a victim at gunpoint and then they drop their gun and a bystander picks it up and hands it back to the thug, we tend to view that as wrong act even though it's dependent on the criminal's earlier wrong act.

Likewise when Republicans do bad things over and over and then Democrats argue that they'll do better but they just hand the same system back over to the Republicans, people are going to be dissatisfied with that. Added to this is the perception that Democratic politicians do this to protect their own political position and preserve what power they individually have, which makes Democratic inaction even more irritating.

by BrenBarn

4/3/2025 at 6:34:51 AM

>It's just that they also think the Republicans are beyond hope so there's no point attempting to make them feel guilty.

How could one ever hope to make them feel guilty about wanting different things than Democratic voters? They do not want to be your friends, or your neighbors, or any other relationship where they should feel guilty for their voting interests. You might as well ask yourself why you don't feel guilty for leaning Democrat.

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 3:46:20 AM

Freedom and justice should not depend on these kind of game show tactics. The system should be more resilient. Unfortunately it isn't due to the culture and social norms of the country.

by dboreham

4/3/2025 at 4:21:46 AM

There isn't a system in the universe that can be resilient against a compromised executive, legislature, and judiciary. Of the three, the judiciary is the least compromised, and it is currently the only one pushing back, but it can only do so much.

At the end of the day, you have to not keep voting in criminals.

by vkou

4/3/2025 at 4:03:45 AM

[dead]

by Slava_Propanei

4/3/2025 at 5:47:55 AM

I love how your analysis does not blame the perpetrators. And I think this is pervasive and one of root problems - Republicans and conservatives are not blamed for own lies nor plans nor decisions.

Instead, democrats are blamed for what Republicans do.

Yes, democrats should have been harder on republicans. But again, the same double standards would cause them to be blamed for "gaming the system".

by watwut

4/3/2025 at 7:23:50 AM

I absolutely would not blame Democrats for gaming the system (as long as they did it in the service of the right goals). At this point it's really just a choice between gaming the system or destroying it.

by BrenBarn

4/3/2025 at 4:56:42 AM

> We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade.

Yeah, why would the Democrats do this ? /s

Please let’s blame the actor

This is the same as blaming the people that don’t vote or the people that vote for that matter

The buck stops at the Resolute desk

by foogazi

4/3/2025 at 3:01:45 AM

Wait until they declare nonresidents are not entitled to properties in the US and seize all bank accounts and 401k, USSR style.

The scariest thing, and most absurd to me, is that even though I made that joke just 1 minute ago, now that I think about it, it is not completely impossible in this current political climate...

I dread to think about what the US will be 10 years from now. Trump is not the problem. He is a solution, or claimed to be, to the ailments that plague the US. The people here want change, they know something is rotten but they don't even know what is the problem with so many lies and misdirection and days to days burdens they have to bear. So Trump become their cry for help. It is just sad and tragic. Truly something for the history book, if we ever get there.

by tomohelix

4/3/2025 at 3:19:20 AM

I don’t think your hypothetical is crazy at all. I learned this weekend that much of my close family, who were pretty normal conservatives just a couple of years ago, now believe that all legal and illegal immigrants have been let into the country by jws to eliminate the white race. And that’s not an exaggeration at all. Like I’m mincing words to make them look less bad.

My family is not the down and out, they never supported these things because they have financial stressors. If anything the economy of the last 20 years has been too good to them. They are relatively wealthy and have stable lives and good jobs. They listen to too many alt right podcasts and are too deep down the Facebook hole.

Two weeks ago I was relatively optimistic. Now I’m really scared, how do you cope with loved one’s who believe these things? We’re off to a really dark place.

by HEmanZ

4/3/2025 at 4:43:11 AM

[flagged]

by wruza

4/3/2025 at 5:53:27 AM

Yeah it does change thing things whether your rhetoric involves "eliminating white race" fear and threat of Jewish.

Person you responded to found out his relatives are full on nazi. That is what it means. And that means violence, intentional cruelty and loss of freedom for those around.

by watwut

4/3/2025 at 7:25:30 AM

I see the reasoning. But assuming that the cultural threat is real for them, how would you state this problem without being a nazi? Is this possible in your "set of axioms"?

by wruza

4/3/2025 at 8:53:46 AM

"Cultural threat" is not correct descriptor of "elimination of white race". They were talking about race war, you are trying to find words that make it non fascist. So, you will need to be precise about what your euphemism of "real cultural threat" means. If it means that they perceive Jews as the reason for "elimination of white race" as they said, then it is just being Nazi with all the logical consequences.

Some people are Nazi and that is that. The eternal wish to reframe far right nazi as something else and non-threatening regardless of what these people do, say or push for amounts to lying to oneself.

by watwut

4/3/2025 at 9:50:56 AM

I guess I got the answer then.

by wruza

4/3/2025 at 9:53:42 AM

They did not mention a war. You can eliminate a race without a war or violence.

by akimbostrawman

4/3/2025 at 1:32:13 PM

No you cant.

by watwut

4/3/2025 at 6:39:43 AM

>If the goal is not to eliminate the white race (which some left figures actually promoted as I see it from the outside, so why you even wonder?) then what does that change? Unnatural/unassimilated immigrantion is a real concern for those who value their cultural climate. What's wrong with having these concerns or values?

About 5 or 6 months ago, here on HN, there was a headline from a major/reputable news source that said the Canadian government wanted a population of 100 million (when they currently have 30ish million, and fertility rates that will see their population shrink instead of grow). Whether there are any racist designs on the white race or not, it's clear that governments consider all of us completely substitutable/expendable, and they will replace us (almost certainly regardless of our skin color, come to that). No one's trying to hide this, it isn't a secret. Very few are so dumb as to not realize that something's up. So whenever anyone tries to debunk the various conspiracy theories about X replacement it can only sound like lies.

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 3:28:09 AM

There's a huge difference between not being able to buy properties and seizing them.

The former is already in place to some degree in various forms including anti-money-laundry and sanction-prevention pretexts: https://www.kvue.com/article/news/politics/texas-legislature...

The latter is far more overreach but US already practices Civil Asset Forfeiture in other contexts, even for US Citizens, nothing new.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 3:43:09 AM

Comments or opinions like yours are the reasons why I think my hypothetical scenario is possible.

It is too easy to view everything as "nothing new, already done in some way" and ignore the slow boil, especially when they are not directly affected or ideologically opposed to it. That is how we get people clamoring for the government to post pictures of chained people marched into extrajudicial prisons without due process.

All I can say is that while some people will be insulated from the consequences, if the situation keeps escalating, do not bet on you being one of those privileged few.

by tomohelix

4/3/2025 at 3:18:25 AM

Citizens aren't far off. I give it until election season.

JD Vance wrote a cover blurb for a book arguing to the MAGA base that all the milquetoast liberals they know are actually "secret communist revolutionaries" who must be "crushed" by any means necessary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unhumans

by smallmancontrov

4/3/2025 at 4:01:29 AM

> who with a majority in the court...

There is a judicial conservative majority. That doesn't mean they are a Trumpian, Republican or even conservative rubber stamp.

The court has ruled against conservatives numerous times already.

by parineum

4/3/2025 at 5:55:39 AM

They are openly enablers, twisting the rules for them whenever they can. Thomas is also quite corrupt. Kavanaugh is purely political advancing conservative project. Alito the same, with better excuses.

by watwut

4/3/2025 at 6:02:07 AM

Kavanaugh has been a swing vote several cases that have gone against conservatives. He's been fairly judicially consistent in his interpretation of the law, even when it isn't in favor of Republicans.

by parineum

4/3/2025 at 1:31:47 PM

Kavanaugh was put there to put an end to abortions. So, he made his promises not to end them and then he did.

by watwut

4/3/2025 at 4:00:41 AM

[dead]

by Slava_Propanei

4/3/2025 at 3:22:50 AM

The system is actually quite resilient. What you are describing is a specific impact the system might have on someone's situation. That makes a specific situation non-resilient, not the system. Everyone in the whole world who is on a visa knows that is not the most resilient situation, by definition.

Also, it is well-settled that visa is a discretionary benefit. Green card is more nuanced, but still not a panacea. Some of the "scholars" that debate these things know full well what the case law is but they want to stir the pot in the media.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 3:32:35 AM

Sure it's discretionary.

But to (a) Revoke it with no warning (b) Instantly making your presense illegal, and you a criminal, and due to your new criminal status(c) immediatly abducting you by masked, unidentified "officers" in an official capacity and sending you on a plane anywhere but here, seems to, I don't know? "stir the pot" as you say?

These revocations could be done far more graciously than they are. It certanly reveals how the people in charge feel about their fellow humans. It's being done this way NOT to be efficent. They're doing it to send a message.

"See how quickly we can disappear you for dissent."

by jasonjayr

4/3/2025 at 4:44:20 AM

Exactly. It's discretionary, but for reasons I won't go into here, I had to have an immigration attorney for my green card adjustment. Her constant refrain was that I was not to worry as it was "discretionary but presumptive" - my previous efforts and process laid it that the onus was on the USG to show that my green card was or might be fraudulent or in bad faith.

Now? The same applies, but the current administration's attitude is "So stop us."

by FireBeyond

4/3/2025 at 5:21:08 AM

My friend was married to a USC (bona fide legit marriage) and they almost fucked them over during Biden administration casting doubt on their marriage. In San Francisco, not some red state. Many examples of that nature regardless of the administration.

Almost always if your case is legit, you'll be fine in the end and nothing to worry about, just as your lawyer says, but it does not mean there won't be a bumpy ride. I genuinely doubt Trump administration is any worse or better unless you affirmatively have anti-Western ideas or from Travel Ban countries. In fact, the anecdotes I have heard so far on the consular processing of Immigrant Visas is better than Biden era.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 3:37:20 AM

I mean, I was discussing the law, now we pivot to emotions? The "masked" guys immediately showed their badges if we are talking about the same incident. When you come to the US on a visa, you should not be under any illusions that is not the case. In fact, a US visa is not even guarantee of entry to the US as you are reminded when you get one.

I am not aware if any other country behaves differently if they want a foreigner gone. It's not a right to be in another sovereign country.

Regardless, this has pretty much nothing to do with the resilience of the system at large.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 5:21:17 AM

Here in Argentina, legal immigrants' visas cannot be revoked, and illegal immigrants generally can only be deported if they are accused of a crime. (Being present illegally is not itself a crime.) They have several weeks to challenge the deportation in court.

Nearly all other countries behave differently. The kind of "immigration law enforcement" we're seeing today in the US is far outside the norms of liberal democracy.

Debating morality rather than legality, any policy that gives thugs free rein to grab people who are not harming others off the street, and imprison them, is immoral, and should be stopped. Even if it were the policy of every country in the world, it should still be stopped.

by kragen

4/3/2025 at 6:46:30 AM

>that gives thugs free rein to grab people who are not harming others off the street, and imprison them, is immoral,

What's harm? Do they have to have harmful intent, or would you object if their presence was unintentionally harmful? Does the harm have to be grievous bodily injury, or is economic harm enough? Why am I allowed to evict trespassers from my home even if they're causing me no physical injury, but the government isn't allowed to evict trespassers to our country unless they can prove some violent felony? It isn't some fundamental human right to live within the borders of the United States.

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 4:55:23 PM

The issue is many are not trespassers. This is the equivalent of a guest in your house. They have paperwork and are working jobs, are legal residents and PhD students. The guest opposes a political policy you like. Instead of ending it in a reasonable fashion and showing them out sensibly, you call your son, a boxer and drug addict, to show up, handcuff them and take them somewhere. I never elected Rubio to decide on such things, and people that defend such decisions make me very uneasy.

by MPSFounder

4/3/2025 at 8:20:25 PM

>The issue is many are not trespassers.

No, because trespass refers to a smaller scale and a personal property sort of circumstance. But if we can extend that to the national level, just because they were invited (or in many cases overlooked and ignored) doesn't mean the property owner can't change his mind and uninvite them, or to decide that enough leeway has already been given and that they must be evicted.

>Instead of ending it in a reasonable fashion and showing them out sensibly

They were shown out sensibly. There's no need to give them extra time so they can go making public appeals and trying to weasel their way into staying. In fact, if they can do that long enough, a judge might just decide they're a tenant and allow them to stay indefinitely. No thanks.

>I never elected Rubio to decide on such things,

But you were fine with Democrats when they were elected? Isn't that just you being upset that public opinion swung a different direction and now the majority doesn't agree with your views?

by NoMoreNicksLeft

4/3/2025 at 3:55:50 AM

In Finland (and I guess in some other European countries) deportation in itself is not a sufficient reason for arrest. Once you have been informed of the decision, you get some time to leave voluntarily, or to challenge the decision in the administrative court system. But you won't be arrested until the decision is final and you have failed to leave voluntarily, unless there are specific reasons to the contrary. And those specific reasons are typically ones that would justify arresting a citizen as well.

by jltsiren

4/3/2025 at 4:07:44 AM

I believe they are free to challenge the decision in an administrative court in the US (under Attorney General, not an Article III court) but they can be arrested. In any case, most countries would reserve the rights to kick you out. That's the deal you make with the country when you choose to get their visa and go there.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 4:32:31 AM

I don't think the controversy is about deporting people who are no longer wanted in the country. It's about the use of unnecessary force. The principle of minimum necessary force is pretty integral to Western societies. It includes the idea that the authorities are not allowed to arrest anyone until more reasonable options have been exhausted.

by jltsiren

4/3/2025 at 4:41:14 AM

Unless there is an imminent threat or you want to send a message and act as a deterrent.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 4:15:49 AM

You started with "Stir the pot in the media", and brought emotions into it.

But the point still stands. Legal does not mean moral. And there is a legal obligation to represent the will of all the people of the country, not just those that elected you.

Clearly, the law needs to spell out exactly what legally needs to be done in the case of an expideient deportation, so it codifies some sense of common morality.

But to your point of resilience: The resilience breaks down when people lose their faith in it. Why trust a system that can act aribtrairily like this? Do we really want our guests to fear that speaking in solidarity with nearly half the country is grounds to be treated like a criminal, and be subject immediate and expedient deportation? That's not the way a "great" country behaves.

by jasonjayr

4/3/2025 at 4:21:22 AM

The law spells out exactly what can be done. Your issue is you don't like the law and want more leniency for the alien, which is a fine position to argue, but that is not the law that has been on the books for 30+ years.

I don't want to debate my opinion on the merits of the current law; clearly we can agree/disagree on some of the points on how it should be written, but I will respond your questions with a different one: do you really believe that there are absolutely zero foreign actors/implants on student visas? If not, you should at least give some deference to the US government intelligence apparatus to know what they are doing. They have reportedly cancelled 300 visas? If it were 10x more, I would start to worry, but 300 sounds like security apparatus functioning properly.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 4:00:55 AM

You would normally at least be entitled to due process. My understanding is that Trump is citing a law that allows the President to deport nationals of a country we are at war with without due process, except we aren’t at war with Turkey.

by cameldrv

4/3/2025 at 4:10:03 AM

I believe you are mixing up different cases. That is not the statute used at all for the Turkey case. The Alien Enemies Act you are referring to was exclusively used for the designated foreign terrorist organizations (i.e. TdA & MS13; Venezuelans who went to El Salvador prison).

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 5:22:45 AM

You also aren't at war with TdA or MS-13.

by kragen

4/3/2025 at 5:28:44 AM

A war is not an essential requirement for invocation of AEA. Read the statute.

(The steel-man for your case would be on TdA being tied to a foreign government, not that it is not a war--an invasion or predatory incursion is enough. We will soon see how SCOTUS rules on that.)

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 3:35:09 AM

Except the people I cited were legal permanent residents and not "visitors" or "solely here as students". A legal permanent resident is by definition a national. In most forms, you will see US citizens/nationals refer to born or naturalized citizens AND legal residents. So your point is fabricated.

by MPSFounder

4/3/2025 at 3:38:37 AM

> A legal permanent resident is by definition a national

You just pulled this from your ass. Absolutely not true.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 3:42:00 AM

I stand corrected. US nationals refers to something else, but is sometimes used to include permanent residents alongside citizens. I am not familiar with the terminology, but my point stands. A legal permanent resident is very different from the situation you are citing, and I think if you believe they are not entitled to free speech (in particular, for offending a foreign country), we have a much bigger problem here.

by MPSFounder

4/3/2025 at 3:54:53 AM

Given now that EU and Australia have decided that free speech is incompatible with public order (hecklers veto), what are these fabled other places left that do have free speech? While I’m sure they’d be free to criticize Israel in their home countries I’m also sure there are others they are not free to criticize.

I’m an old school free speech absolutist and would prefer unfettered free speech but when neither side of politics supports it I have to be realistic as that battle has been already lost.

by cjbgkagh

4/3/2025 at 4:02:39 AM

The terminology makes all the difference, though. You cannot just handwave it away. A US National is not removable by the discretion of U.S. Secretary of State, but a LPR can be found deportable based on that. The law could not be more clear. This is not a First Amendment concern. You don't have to commit a crime or to be charged with one. Even your mere presence is enough to trigger the statute. You can debate if Rubio should exercise that right and vote for a different President to elect a different cabinet to execute the law differently, or to elect a different Congress to change the law, but to say he does not have the right or that it is vague is preposterous. It is just that some people are not aware of the details and may have a different expectation compared to the status quo.

If you don't like that status quo, that's fair enough, but that's not a proof of non-resilience. The system is supposed to operate based on some approximation of will of the people and it has been quite resilient in approximating it.

As for me, allow me to be skeptical of you having a coherent, well-thought-out alternative of an immigration system with all the consequences and corner cases covered, especially if you are not familiar with the basic terminology of the current one.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 4:23:24 AM

In general the people making appeals to freedom of speech as a traditionally held cultural value are the same ones who not long ago espoused that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.

It was a bad idea then, it’s a bad idea now, but I would have much more sympathy for the left had they maintained a tradition of freedom of speech as a cultural value throughout and not only when its convenient for them.

by cjbgkagh

4/3/2025 at 4:29:35 AM

Your point in hypocrisy of appeal to Freedom of Speech (cultural, not constitutional) is well-taken, but I would argue it is a red-herring: unless you have studied their intelligence files, it is not at all clear to the general public whether the deportees are merely selected because of a speech concern or some more nefarious intent or association.

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 4:39:22 AM

Keeping secrets from the public is a good way to lose the public trust which they’ll need to stay in power. Otherwise their replacements will have their own secret reasons to be deporting people.

I’ve already resigned myself to the reality that freedom of speech no longer exists and hasn’t existed for some time. I think only the times when we thought we had freedom of speech was when information was very tightly controlled and the few cranks in the periphery were not a threat to government legitimacy. An increasingly weak and illegitimate government cannot afford to allow free speech.

by cjbgkagh

4/3/2025 at 4:46:35 AM

I believe they stated that for at least a few of the cases: dude came to the US to dismantle western civilization and acted upon it.

Good riddance. They are free to exercise their Freedom of Speech and Due Process under Sharia Law in their home country (or the UK).

by tgma

4/3/2025 at 4:59:44 AM

If the right loses the culture war then those deported will just be invited back to finish the job.

Either do a ‘dewokification’ on the scale of Germanys ‘denazification’ or do not. This half measure is sure to fail, exercising power may be cathartic but it comes at the cost of legitimacy which in the long run will come at the cost of power. The Trump administration should focus on governing well not on capriciously punishing weak individuals in raids. The right wing is split on the issue of Israel and the pending war with Iran is already unpopular and it hasn’t even started yet.

Sometimes I wonder if the only thing that could save the right would be if AOC gets the democratic nomination - I wouldn’t put it past them.

by cjbgkagh

4/3/2025 at 3:40:19 AM

I would also disagree very much with your point including for visitors. Individuals visiting America value our free speech. Renouncing it in favor of a foreign country (most of those arrested were deported for anti-Israel sentiment), is not something we should be proud of. It makes me sad that fellow Americans turn down those who wanted to be here, in favor of a hostile nation that couldn't care less about any American and that has gained immensely from grift on our taxes.

by MPSFounder

4/3/2025 at 4:40:27 AM

> Things are changing and they're changing fast.

What has changed?

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 4:58:16 AM

Immigration policies are way stricter now, and they're leaving people out. Also related, some countries are issuing warnings for people traveling to the US. https://travelnoire.com/europe-us-travel-advisory

by pacomerh

4/3/2025 at 5:33:21 AM

> Immigration policies are way stricter now

Do you have any evidence of that? Have there been changes in legislation, specific directives issued?

> some countries are issuing warnings for people traveling to the US

In the case of Germany, it was emphasized that the change was not a travel warning, but instead a travel advisory [0]. Here are a few advisories from Canada, accessed 2025-04-02:

Germany: Exercise a high degree of caution in Germany due to the threat of terrorism. https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/germany

France: Exercise a high degree of caution in France due to the elevated threat of terrorism. https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/france

Italy: Exercise a high degree of caution in Italy due to the threat of terrorism. https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/italy

The State Department has a similar advisory on traveling to the UK:

> Country Summary: Terrorist groups continue plotting possible attacks in the United Kingdom. Terrorists may attack with little or no warning, targeting tourist locations, transportation hubs, markets/shopping malls, local government facilities, hotels, clubs, restaurants, places of worship, parks, major sporting and cultural events, educational institutions, airports, and other public areas. There is also a risk of isolated violence by dissident groups in Northern Ireland, focused primarily on police and military targets.

I will look at anything specific you have on hand that you feel merits attention, but I know that in the case of the German advisory, it was just updated to reflect that possessing a visa was not a guarantee of entry. So far as I know this did not come about as a result of change in policy. While the Trump administration has done a lot of chest-thumping on immigration, I haven't seen any indication that these sorts of refusals and detentions are unprecedented; they just seem to be receiving more media attention. In this instance, there were three high profile cases of Germans being refused entry and / or detained, which resulted in the advisory.

[0]: https://www.newsweek.com/germany-issues-travel-warning-us-20... ("But they also stressed that this change does not count as an official travel warning.")

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 4:44:37 AM

> What has changed?

From the freaking title: “Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.”

by foogazi

4/3/2025 at 4:58:32 AM

Can you point to any specific policy changes or case studies?

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 5:48:30 AM

What a lazy game you are playing.

by hackable_sand

4/3/2025 at 5:21:35 AM

That the administration thinks they just just drag people into vans and ship them off to a foreign prison?

by TylerE

4/3/2025 at 5:49:42 AM

> That the administration thinks they just just drag people into vans and ship them off to a foreign prison?

Can you point to a specific instance where this has occurred, and what laws you believe were broken? I'm not qualified to say if the El Salvador detention facilities are legal or not, but my understanding is that ICE has always had the authority to arrest illegal immigrants, and that a potential penalty for illegal entry is imprisonment.

See: 8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien

> (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

> Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 6:18:13 AM

> Can you point to a specific instance where this has occurred,

All of the removals to El Salvador (before those were halted by judicial order) premised on the improper invocation (because there has been no invasion of the US by a foreign state) of the Alien Enemies Act, who had neither deportation hearings nor criminal trials.

> and what laws you believe were broken?

The 1st (because the actual basis was often protected speech unrelated to the asserted premise of removal), 5th (because of denial of due process), 8th (because of conditions in the prison where they are sent), and 13th (because the prison involves involuntary servitude, and they were condemned to it without a criminal conviction) Amendments, as well as the Alien Enemies Act, whose requirements were not faithfully applied.

> my understanding is that ICE has always had the authority to arrest illegal immigrants, and that a potential penalty for illegal entry is imprisonment.

ICE has always had authority to detail alleged illegal immigrants. Deportation for illegal presence has an administrative process which was not followed in these cases, imprisonment for illegal entry (which is not implied by illegal presence) requires a criminal conviction.

by dragonwriter

4/3/2025 at 6:53:50 AM

> The 1st (because the actual basis was often protected speech unrelated to the asserted premise of removal)

This sounds like you are talking about the students who were detained and deported. Were any of them sent to El Salvador? My understanding is that they had their student visas revoked on the basis of 8 USC 1182(a)(3)(C)(i):

> An alien whose presence or activities in the United States the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States is deportable.

I don't know the specifics of the cases pertaining to the students, but from a plain reading this doesn't seem altogether unreasonable. I think it's obvious that this is being done at the behest of Israel, but it doesn't seem explicitly illegal.

> 5th (because of denial of due process) [...] 8th (because of conditions in the prison where they are sent) [...] and 13th (because the prison involves involuntary servitude, and they were condemned to it without a criminal conviction)

I couldn't find clarification as to what section of the prison the deportees are being held in. I understand that the prison is set up such that lower-level offenders are required to work or study almost every waking hour of the day, whereas gang members are segregated and not permitted to leave their cells at all. The key issue here seems to be due process, which is in turn dependent on a court ruling on the application of the Alien Sedition acts being improper.

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 1:23:35 PM

Just be aware that if you accept that non-citizens have no right to due process, you are accepting that citizens have no right to due process. All the government has to do is claim that you are not a citizen; without due process you have no chance to prove the contrary. [1]

[1] https://bsky.app/profile/timothysnyder.bsky.social/post/3ll5...

by clydethefrog

4/3/2025 at 8:51:23 PM

> All the government has to do is claim that you are not a citizen; without due process you have no chance to prove the contrary.

Did any of the people who were deported claim to have been citizens?

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 5:32:26 AM

Are you going to Sealion this ?

by foogazi

4/3/2025 at 5:52:07 AM

> Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter.

Read the site guidelines. You are breaking several of them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 4:18:58 AM

at this point, what's even the point of immigrating here? if you're still young and haven't rooted yourself to this place (no family / house / significant other), I'd advise to leave and look to build a life in a different country. the best years of your life would be better lived elsewhere.

by nice_byte

4/3/2025 at 4:44:53 AM

Yes that's true, I really don't know what the endgame is for this new admin. Growing up south of the border we always knew the beauty of this country was richness in cultural diversity. It seems like we're going backwards now?.

by pacomerh

4/3/2025 at 11:28:54 AM

End game is to stay in power, to stay in power means to deliver your campaign promises to expel immigrants which is what trump is doing and, despite many here don’t like that, relatively well received by American public. https://www.axios.com/2025/03/31/trump-us-adults-approval-ra...

by jimmydoe

4/3/2025 at 1:20:19 PM

There are still massive benefits to living and working in the US despite the fact that it's also uniquely problematic. Incomes for some/many areas of work are extremely high here compared to the rest of the world, and despite the narrative of corporate news that the world is literally on fire, the general day to day of most Americans is pretty unimpacted.

by 93po

4/3/2025 at 3:32:26 PM

Strange - an unusual amount of comments flagged. Hacker News is becoming more like Reddit by the day it seems.

by joshcsimmons

4/3/2025 at 3:58:31 AM

It's ironic that Silicon Valley's CEOs are now getting exactly what their candidate promised them.

Where is the pushback against this from Musk and Ellison?

by smt88

4/3/2025 at 11:17:29 AM

Tech right was in conflict with MAGA on H1B a few months ago, and they lost.

Vance recently tried to put a truce between them https://www.politico.com/newsletters/digital-future-daily/20...

by jimmydoe

4/3/2025 at 5:45:55 PM

There is no diplomatic situation that cannot be made at least a little worse by the presence of JD Vance.

by justin66

4/3/2025 at 4:05:51 AM

“For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.”

by toomuchtodo

4/3/2025 at 2:49:49 AM

Funny thing is that getting a visa for China is now more seemless than it has ever been and they love my euros.

by Yeul

4/3/2025 at 6:10:33 AM

China detained two Canadians for almost three years in retaliation for Canada cooperating on a US warrant for Meng Wanzhou. They can make you disappear in the way that people in this thread are pretending the Americans can. It is not safe to travel there.

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 6:55:25 AM

You mean like how the CIA flew around doing “extraordinary rendition” during the turn of the millennium? Yea, that’s a shitty thing to do, hopefully all the people of the world can get better governments.

by ok_dad

4/3/2025 at 7:38:13 AM

> pretending the Americans can

Pretending?

Dude, there are super public and well covered cases were the US did not only that but even worse, i.e. MEGAs illegal CEO abduction from their home soil in the 2010s for a particularly egregious example

by ffsm8

4/3/2025 at 10:13:04 AM

> MEGAs illegal CEO abduction from their home soil in the 2010s for a particularly egregious example

I’m assuming you’re referring to Kim Dotcom since I can’t find any other reference to what you are describing. Kim was not abducted; he was arrested in by New Zealand police in 2012, and has since been fighting in court to avoid extradition to the United States. There was nothing illegal about this; it all went through the court system.

by lurk2

4/3/2025 at 3:15:39 AM

Yup, visa condition for me to China are the same as to the US and they aren't likely to search my phone (I've crossed that border dozens of times with barely a hiccup, just a smile)

by Taniwha

4/3/2025 at 11:21:15 AM

And it’s safer on the street in China than in the us.

by jimmydoe

4/3/2025 at 3:09:33 AM

[flagged]

by zombiwoof

4/3/2025 at 3:15:09 AM

There is an enormous and visible difference between “not getting a visa” and “getting a visa, relying on it, moving to a new country, and being told that the legal system of the new country has turned to slime and your visa may or may not still be valid”. I’d be interested in hearing about when other countries have done that, if you know of any.

by lazyasciiart

4/3/2025 at 3:48:50 AM

That’s fine. All those H1Bs will go back to their home countries, work for the same companies at a fraction of the salary and instead of paying taxes and rent and other expenses in the US will pay in their home countries.

And when they are laid off, or drop off to start their own companies, those companies will be based in their home countries instead of in the U.S.

I think this is a great and moral plan to reverse the brain drain the U.S. has been benefiting from at the expense of other countries for decades.

by addicted

4/3/2025 at 4:28:04 AM

As an Australian I'm pretty keen to start seeing a higher tier of people choosing Australia over the US to move to now.

by OccamsMirror

4/3/2025 at 5:25:11 AM

Australia is not famous for openness to immigration; people overseas are more likely to know about Pauline Hanson and the prison camps in Nauru.

by kragen

4/3/2025 at 6:15:29 AM

We're pretty open to skilled migration. Especially from places like India.

by OccamsMirror

4/3/2025 at 10:52:44 AM

Maybe that is true in reality, but I think a lot of people overseas have a different viewpoint. If they think it's false, they won't apply.

by kragen

4/3/2025 at 4:02:04 AM

The other countries could have tried less corruption and fewer palaces and yachts for their nobility. And a few more opportunities to earn a decent lifestyle with nothing, but a brain and hard work.

by startupsfail

4/3/2025 at 3:18:10 AM

No countries readily jail people who have the legal right to enter that country as the U.S is currently doing, but if you wish, a reciprocal policy for U.S citizens traveling abroad can certainly be arranged.

by occz

4/3/2025 at 3:22:22 AM

Sure they do. In places like, Russia.

You know, places to look up to.

by HEmanZ

4/3/2025 at 4:18:40 AM

Having a visa doesn't give you the right to enter. I don't think permanent residency does either.

It's always at the discretion of the immigration officer and there's no recourse if they don't let you in.

Personally, I don't think it's generally reasonable to jail at entry when denying entry is an option. The case where the UK tourist was denied entry to Canada from the US and then was jailed in the US is a case where denying entry isn't really possible, because if neither side of a land border will allow entry, what do uou do... but then it shouldn't have taken more than a couple days to make arrangements for her to fly home on her own dime.

by toast0

4/3/2025 at 4:22:04 AM

[dead]

by wetpaws

4/3/2025 at 3:37:24 AM

"They all do". Just categorically not true but ok buddy

by trashchomper

4/3/2025 at 3:23:23 AM

[dead]

by trchek

4/3/2025 at 2:13:56 AM

[flagged]

by xqcgrek2

4/3/2025 at 2:21:02 AM

It's not "don't leave", but "don't put yourself in a situation there you have to reenter". It's in neither party's interest to be in that situation.

by viraptor

4/3/2025 at 2:46:39 AM

What happens if and when ICE starts rounding visa holders up to deport? No snark intended, this is a genuine question based on all available evidence. I don’t endorse such action at all, but we are existing in exceptional times and the discussion is important. “If you stay, what are you getting yourself into?” is a serious question to ask and to manage the risk around.

by toomuchtodo

4/3/2025 at 3:19:37 AM

> What happens if and when ICE starts rounding visa holders up to deport?

Read the news, it's already happening. One video I saw showed a woman (a PhD student in a legal visa) being surrounded by plainclothes officers with neck gaiters over their faces and they took her away in an unmarked car. Her family hired a lawyer who still hasn't contacted her though they claim she's in a specific facility in Mississippi. Her crime? Speaking out against Israel. If the first amendment is dead, hopefully the second can save us.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/29/us/rumeysa-ozturk-tufts-unive...

by ok_dad

4/3/2025 at 4:09:24 AM

A judge ordered she not be taken out of Massachusetts. It was ignored

by wahnfrieden

4/3/2025 at 3:17:45 AM

At the moment it looks like they are snatching people off the street, they're already rounding up people to deport, no "your visa has been cancelled, you have 30 days to leave" more people in masks snatching you off the street

by Taniwha

4/3/2025 at 3:11:12 AM

All somebody needs to do in this climate is call ICE, say their coworker sympathizes with Hamas. They overheard them at work.

Watch how fast the law doesn’t protect them

Unless they work for Elon

by zombiwoof

4/3/2025 at 2:18:31 AM

Regardless of your opinions of guest worker visas, they are here voluntarily on legal visas. The immigration lawyers at these companies are advising them they may not be allowed to reenter, for no cause.

It is a disgrace to the honor of America.

by throwaway5752

4/3/2025 at 2:47:27 AM

At two different US companies I had to attend training led by a lawyer on how to file H1b and L1 applications, how to write recruitment ads and coaching visa applicants for their interviews.

Both training programmes were surprisingly similar, even two years apart.

No notes were allowed. No slides.

Even the call for attendance was verbal and in person.

This is a US corporation problem, not the US government’s.

by SanjayMehta

4/3/2025 at 3:16:22 AM

The government wrote the rules those classes are teaching you to meet.

by lazyasciiart

4/3/2025 at 4:20:18 AM

Perhaps the last government, but not this one.

by toomuchtodo

4/3/2025 at 4:45:39 PM

That should not be the case, and your saying this is an indication of how far America has fallen. You can just look at the Afghanistan withdrawal. That was executed by the 2020-2024 administration to complete an agreement signed by the 2016-2020 administration. It was unpopular and a bad outcome, but the 2020-2024 administration realized a country had to keep its word, even with the Taliban.

If the word of America is not honored that is exactly the disgrace I'm talking about. A nation's word - the treaties they sign, the contracts or agreements they make with people of other countries - has to be honored. Like the conditions of visas.

An administration can change future agreements or renegotiate within the frameworks it agreed to, but it should honor existing agreements. That is one of the many ways a government is not like a corporation.

by throwaway5752

4/3/2025 at 5:34:45 PM

I agree there is merit to this reasoning around trust and promises between nations, but I don’t believe it applies in this case, which was a wink and a nudge around using “legal” immigration and visa policy to suppress wages and disempower domestic workers, to the benefit of imported labor and capital.

Bad faith agreements warrant no continuity or protection, but people should still always be treated humanely when the rules change.

by toomuchtodo

4/3/2025 at 3:12:00 AM

[flagged]

by zombiwoof

4/3/2025 at 2:28:33 AM

[flagged]

by hello_computer

4/3/2025 at 2:32:41 AM

> legal visas

US government often disagrees.

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/indian-corporation-pays-re...

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/indian-management-consulti...

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdtx/pr/houston-consulting-comp...

by betaby

4/3/2025 at 2:36:25 AM

No one is claiming that everyone is on a legal visa or that companies don’t break the law.

The argument is that reentry, even if you are legal right now, might be denied for reasons which wouldn’t have gotten you even a sideways look six months ago. Which surely you don’t disagree?

by compiler-guy

4/3/2025 at 2:57:48 AM

I'm not sure. The media is pointing out specific cases but the question is what % of travelers on visa made it in/out without trouble. There is heightened focus on enforcement. They may have trained their software to have a lower threshold of social media posts for entry. So, I do believe that you're at risk if you've made controversial statements not in line with what US considers as friendly behavior.

by orochimaaru

4/3/2025 at 3:18:49 AM

Or if you have a criminal conviction of any kind that is many years old and was known on the application that got you the visa, like the German and Filipina residents. So the rules have changed - they are now saying that visas valid at the time of approval should never have been approved based on the circumstances at the time.

by lazyasciiart

4/3/2025 at 11:35:40 AM

Rules change every other day to keep deporting immigrants in the news, so American public believe trump is delivering his campaign promises which is against immigration. Whats funny here is deporting a legal German is much easier and 100x louder in the news than deporting “illegals”, that’s why in the end he’s deporting less in total than late stage Biden admin https://www.axios.com/2025/04/01/immigrant-removals-deportat...

by jimmydoe

4/3/2025 at 2:38:06 AM

[flagged]

by BuckRogers

4/3/2025 at 2:45:32 AM

> Brighter days ahead once again for the descendants of those that settled, built, and fought for this country.

A very 1920s vibe in the 2020s, which makes me sad that we've slid this far back, that so many Americans no longer believe that the melting pot is a good idea even in theory.

by Calavar

4/3/2025 at 2:07:11 PM

The melting pot idea clearly benefits some groups more than others. It should come as no surprise when the groups that it does not benefit start questioning the origin of that idea and who is pushing it in the first place.

by neverbehind

4/3/2025 at 4:23:59 PM

Who said anything about a melting pot? I'm not sure why you'd derail a comment that speaks to Americans that have been here for a hundred+ years, vs newcomers. There's nothing anti-melting pot about it. It reads that your true intentions are something else. Of course it's wrong to keep pummeling people who are already here with millions of new people with zero protectionism whatsoever. If you think black, hispanic, asian, and white people alike haven't been here for 100+ years and we all deserve better than we've received... well, you just don't know much about this country. And I'm glad you're tormented due to that ignorance.

by BuckRogers

4/3/2025 at 2:59:00 AM

[flagged]

by john_texas

4/3/2025 at 2:42:54 AM

You should be better than this

by 01HNNWZ0MV43FF

4/3/2025 at 3:14:43 AM

Fear not, once Trump is done, the U.S will have lost its position as a superpower and along with it all of its wealth and influence.

by occz

4/3/2025 at 4:28:43 PM

False. But what would it matter if the people have not prospered alongside. I am not the USA. I am a person who writes software and likely has made half of what I would from a lot of hard work, due to competition that other countries have done a better job of keeping out for their own people.

And now with AI eliminating most programming jobs, which will happen by the way, that downward pressure on wages may mean I'm finishing up my career starting over in a new one within 5 years.

Pure stolen wealth, essentially even stolen lives from hard working Americans. We are people who studied hard, we worked hard, we played by the rules. And our lives were stolen from us. Our retribution starts now.

by BuckRogers

4/3/2025 at 3:20:58 AM

[dead]

by b59831

4/3/2025 at 2:40:33 AM

[flagged]

by mach5

4/3/2025 at 3:18:13 AM

[flagged]

by sjtgraham

4/3/2025 at 3:39:15 AM

H1B is a dual-intent visa, which means holders are allowed to pursue permanent residency (upgrading them to an immigrant by the US legal definition) by applying for a green card.

Most people use the term "immigrant" for people who have chosen to live in another country without considering the "non-immigrant" status of their visa.

by simonw

4/3/2025 at 4:05:15 AM

Is there some rule that says other people aren't allowed to pursue a green card? That doesn't seem like a differentiator to me.

That's a real question, I have no idea how any of it really works in the practical sense.

by parineum

4/3/2025 at 4:25:40 AM

Yeah, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent

> Persons with H-1B visas (for specialty workers and their spouses and minor children with H-4 visas), K visas (for fiancees or foreign spouses of US citizens and their minor children), L visas (for corporate transferees and their spouses and minor children), and V visas (spouses and minor children of lawful permanent residents) are permitted to have dual intent under the Immigration and Nationality Act.[1]

> Most other foreign visitors and workers, like those on H-2B worker, H-3 trainee/worker, B-1 business, B-2 tourist, Visa Waiver Program visitor, F-1 student, J-1 exchange visitor, M-1 student, journalism, and entertainer visas should not have immigrant intent. Such visa holders can be denied admission if the consular or port official reasonably believes that they have interest in permanently remaining in the United States (i.e., in pursuing a green card).

by simonw

4/3/2025 at 4:16:49 AM

Yes, there are visas Like L1 Visa where you can work in US but never apply for a Green Card, and this is considered a non immigrant visa while H1b is considered a dual intent visa. Which is why regularly people who come in on L1, separately participate in the H1b lottery!

by sashank_1509

4/3/2025 at 5:08:23 AM

L-1 is dual intent.

by zepton

4/3/2025 at 4:11:52 AM

TN can’t

by wahnfrieden

4/3/2025 at 2:57:30 AM

If you are on H1b, buy a burner phone before you leave and enter the country. Should he fine.

by brcmthrowaway

4/3/2025 at 3:13:12 AM

If they’re checking phones, having a burner phone with no or few contacts seems like a great way to arouse suspicion at the border.

by tacticalturtle

4/3/2025 at 3:35:45 AM

Anyone returning to the US necessarily had to earlier leave the US for some other country or countries.

If you are asked upon returning the US why you have a burner phone with few contacts say that it is because you didn't trust one or more of those other countries.

by tzs

4/3/2025 at 3:22:01 AM

A newly purchased phone is not a problem.

by mixmastamyk

4/3/2025 at 3:32:32 AM

And just smash it

by downrightmike

4/3/2025 at 4:26:28 AM

Assuming they let you back in.

by OccamsMirror